User Tag List

First 513141516 Last

Results 141 to 150 of 157

  1. #141
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    yupp
    Posts
    29,776

    Default

    I tend to like INFJs more than I like INFPs most of the time. sometimes I'll hate an INFJ and sometimes I'll love an INFP
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  2. #142
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    About the pattern (mentioned in a few places here) of INFJs feeling like we always have to do things on the INFP's terms ... I'm really struggling with this a lot right now. I find that when I can articulate things strongly and clearly to my INFP partner, I may be able to have a real say in the core dynamics of our interactions. But it takes me so long to figure out what "my terms" might be, and to find a way to articulate them clearly and without what she names as vagueness - it's like I can't keep up with the strength and powerful gravitational pull of her terms, which she seems to strongly project, without speaking them, almost effortlessly as a matter of simply moving through the world. The default is that I am and pretty much always have been constantly scrambling to adapt to her. As I try to adapt, her terms sort of shift and change and mutate as I am trying to figure out how to adapt. This whole situation keeps me subtly but powerfully off balance in a way that's becoming increasingly not-okay for me. I'm getting increasingly soul-tired from this process. At this point it almost sickens me sometimes, to feel so off-balance, like some aspect of my survival requires me to not keep being in this state of disorientation. But at this point I don't yet know how to get it to stop.
    When a Perceiver starts using Ne/Se indiscriminately (IOW, things like playing "devil's advocate," reworking the discussion's terms of engagement on the fly, ranting, jawboning an issue to death, etc.), it can get tiring for the person on the receiving end, even another Perceiver.

    The usual answer is to anticipate the other person's agenda ahead of time and work out some talking points for it. There's no requirement that you have to keep fencing with a Perceiver's out-of-control Ne/Se. It's okay to give a talking point or two and wrap up with, “Frankly I don’t know any other way to put it. That’s just how I feel about it.”

    And if the other person fights you on that and says that's not good enough, then erect some boundaries: Determine who gets the final say in this or that domain of the relationship.

    Also it's okay to take time-outs. For example, if a Perceiver hits you with a wide-ranging issue out of the blue, ask them to make their best presentation on the issue and then tell them you need to think about it and get back to them with your response later. Then use that time-out to prep your argument and talking points for a response.

    Basically, by doing these things you're just deflecting an overdose of P with your J (Te/Fe). But Te/Fe isn't just for Judgers; even Perceivers like me use Te/Fe tools like agendas and talking points to deal with discussions that easily and predictably spin out of control (for example, in business meetings).

    Naturally, you shouldn't abuse your J any more than a Perceiver should abuse their P. That is, you shouldn't use talking points to simply shut down discussion of all uncomfortable topics. When overused, they can kill communication. But used judiciously, I think that agendas, talking points, and boundaries are fair play for use by both Ps and Js when discussions tend to degenerate into ranting or jawboning or whatever.

  3. #143
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    FLD, thank you for this reply. I was initially confused by the wording because I'm a perceiving dominant and my INFP is a judging dominant (I know MBTI uses first extroverted function for the last letter, it isn't always useful for me). I think part of what you write isn't applicable at all to our situation but at least one part may be.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    ...using Ne/Se indiscriminately (IOW, things like playing "devil's advocate," reworking the discussion's terms of engagement on the fly, ...), it can get tiring for the person on the receiving end.
    Point of clarification: this term-setting thing in our case really isn't just about discussion. It permeates various layers of our overall shared life together.

    That said, the bolded part of the quote above may possibly be applicable somehow. But I question whether that's at or even very near the root of the problem in our case.

    The usual answer is to anticipate the other person's agenda ahead of time and work out some talking points for it.
    That orientation (being so oriented to her that I am anticipating her agenda ahead of time and working out some responses) would take a LOT of energy for me as a way of life. And, more importantly, it would probably exacerbate that feeling of soul-tiredness I mentioned in my previous comment.

    Determine who gets the final say in this or that domain of the relationship.
    In order to do that effectively, I think I would need to have more - and more consistent - clarity than I currently have amidst this disorientation I described.

    Also it's okay to take time-outs.
    I wouldn't do it like you described in the rest of that paragraph, but I have been feeling like I maybe need some sort of bigger-picture time-out.

    This is what the problem/situation actually looks like from my organic Ni perception:



    I have no idea how much any of this is specific to INFJ-INFP processes and how much is other stuff, though.

  4. #144
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    2,879

    Default

    I was curious...do you feel like you are highly tuned to her unspoken wants/needs, on alert for them and being very responsible to them? And this is making you tired? Sorry if this is off-base...I found this topic interesting.

  5. #145
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    @Werebudgie:

    Your metaphor about the tuning fork and "resonance" is so vague that I've having trouble relating it to any practical situation. The only thing that comes to mind is something along the lines of what Redbone is asking: Are one or both of you expected to read the other's mind (anticipate unspoken wants/needs, etc.)?

    That sort of thing might raise issues of co-dependency or enabling (or even something as benign as "urge to merge"), and it might be appropriate to see a marriage counselor together and have the counselor evaluate your interactions.

    ETA: What would happen if you were to choose not to "resonate," i.e., if you were to simply tune her out and go about your own business and act blissfully ignorant of anything that hasn't been specifically worked out aloud between the two of you? What effect would that have on your relationship?

  6. #146
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    Your metaphor about the tuning fork and "resonance" is so vague that I've having trouble relating it to any practical situation.
    I'm smiling at the comment that you find my metaphor too vague, when for me the internal feel of it is a really powerful sharpening and clarifying tool for my understanding. I'm smiling because this, I think, is one of the broader communication struggles that can happen between INFJs and INFPs. Something about Ni/Ne maybe. Anyway, I hear you that it's too vague and I understand (from the outside) that it would be so.



    ETA: What would happen if you were to choose not to "resonate," i.e., if you were to simply tune her out and go about your own business and act blissfully ignorant of anything that hasn't been specifically worked out aloud between the two of you? What effect would that have on your relationship?
    You know, I've been asking myself a version of this question. My answers so far: I think there is some amount of this that I can do, and have already actually started to do after identifying and articulating that metaphor I used. But I also think there are limits to my ability to do this - limits that have their source in how I experience things. One set of limits comes from my inability to compartmentalize and/or simply ignore some aspects of my surroundings. I suspect that has something to do with Ni-dom (perceiving-dominance) + Fe-aux, though it could be something else about me specifically. I read something somewhere on this site (I can't remember exactly who or what thread) where an introvert. quite possibly INFJ, was saying that s/he couldn't have real alone time sitting next to a loved one, because some part of her/his attention is always aware of, and at some level "reading," that other person. Another set of possible limits comes from the depths of that metaphor I used, and so my thoughts may simply be more vagueness from your perspective and I'll leave that aside. As for what effect your suggested practice might have on the relationship, I really don't know.

  7. #147
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I'm smiling at the comment that you find my metaphor too vague, when for me the internal feel of it is a really powerful sharpening and clarifying tool for my understanding. I'm smiling because this, I think, is one of the broader communication struggles that can happen between INFJs and INFPs. Something about Ni/Ne maybe. […]
    Fine. But by the same token, here is what I'm seeing coming from your end:

    Earlier along, you placed the source of the problem with your wife:

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    [...] it's like I can't keep up with the strength and powerful gravitational pull of her terms, which she seems to strongly project, without speaking them [...]
    You said it was specifically a problem with INFPs and that INFJs feel like they have to do everything on the INFP's terms. But in your latest post you seem to be placing the problem with your own Fe:

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    [...] where an introvert. quite possibly INFJ, was saying that s/he couldn't have real alone time sitting next to a loved one, because some part of her/his attention is always aware of, and at some level "reading," that other person.[...]
    To you, these two descriptions might indeed amount to one and the same thing insofar as you "resonate" with your wife. But I think the distinction deserves to be pinned down better. After all, you're painting this situation as a pretty dire state of affairs:

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    [...]This whole situation keeps me subtly but powerfully off balance in a way that's becoming increasingly not-okay for me. I'm getting increasingly soul-tired from this process. At this point it almost sickens me sometimes, to feel so off-balance, like some aspect of my survival requires me to not keep being in this state of disorientation.[...]
    Here's how I see it: It's like you say that your wife is always yelling at you, and her constant yelling is driving you crazy. But on closer examination, you're not sure if your wife is really yelling or if she is talking normally and you just have very sensitive hearing.

    I understand that you Ni-Doms like to see things your own way. But that sort of thing needs to be pinned down a little better, I think.

  8. #148
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    I was curious...do you feel like you are highly tuned to her unspoken wants/needs, on alert for them and being very responsible to them? And this is making you tired? Sorry if this is off-base...I found this topic interesting.
    Answers/musings behind the spoiler:


  9. #149
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    @FLD, at this point I think the root problem is in the dynamic itself. Meaning: I can't tell if she's metaphorically yelling or I'm metaphorically oversensitive to sound. Maybe the answer depends on what point of view you take in considering the situation. I can speak from my subjective point of view, but that's what it is for me. Like - what I am/do/perceive is normal for me, and what she is/does/perceives is normal for her, so the source of the problem depends on the vantage point. I know Te might look for universal standards (and I think that you mentioned somewhere else having pretty strongly developed your Te in a professional context?). But I really don't know that I can pin it down to one or the other per your comment.

    Also:



    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    I understand that you Ni-Doms like to see things your own way. But that sort of thing needs to be pinned down a little better, I think.
    Yes, I am an unrepentant Ni-dom in this regard (I can't seem to find the "unrepentant Ni-dom" emoticon) Speaking of that, I bet my answer to Redbone won't be particularly useful from your perspective (you know, maybe you could just sort of imagine that Ni-dom emoticon here ....). In case it's not obvious, though, I do appreciate your comments.

  10. #150
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Yes, I am an unrepentant Ni-dom in this regard (I can't seem to find the "unrepentant Ni-dom" emoticon) Speaking of that, I bet my answer to Redbone won't be particularly useful from your perspective (you know, maybe you could just sort of imagine that Ni-dom emoticon here ....). In case it's not obvious, though, I do appreciate your comments.
    Okay, that's fine if you still need to work out on whose end the balance of the problem lies. With Ni-Doms, I know that the best thing to do is back off and let them work out such things by themselves.

    As for your comment in the spoiler: I think that item is something more substantive. Long-standing, unresolved problems can become a big issue. You can create firewalls around old problems for a while, but eventually the firewalls start breaking down and those old problems increasingly bleed out into all the other daily interactions. In that kind of a dynamic, I agree an INFP can be a royal pain in the ass. My INFP ex and I got into that situation toward the end of our marriage.

    My ex was a hoarder, and we danced around that problem for a decade while I was still at work. As long as I was at work, I basically surrendered the house to her and her clutter, IOW I enabled her with her problem. But as my retirement approached, we both increasingly dug in our heels. We knew a clash was coming: There wasn't room for both me and her clutter in that house. It made for lots of sparring and tense moments on all sides, even well before my retirement.

    So yeah, from my experience you kind of want to get those old issues addressed as quickly as possible; if you let them come to a head by themselves, it's going to be messy.

    Oh well, enough advice from me. Good luck, and I hope you get that stuff worked out.

Similar Threads

  1. Video: Struggles of Introverted Intuitiives (INTJ, INFJ, INFP, INTP)
    By highlander in forum Typology Videos and RSS Feeds
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-27-2017, 04:04 PM
  2. [INFJ] INFJ-constant tug of war between liking people and needing my own space
    By Lightyear in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 08-08-2015, 08:39 AM
  3. [INFJ] When an INFJ is past the point of caring...
    By Immaculate Cloud in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 07-03-2009, 11:53 AM
  4. [INFJ] INFJ - the importance of space?
    By janey_girl in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 05-05-2009, 09:59 AM
  5. [INFP] INFP: Sense of Purpose?
    By Abhaya in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 10-08-2008, 11:59 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO