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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm glad if that's helpful!

    For me, I also find that conversation/interaction stimulates a thought process (which may be negative or positive). It's like there's a delayed reaction to most interactions I have with people. That can be frustrating to a person when they see seemingly unconnected behaviour with the present interaction (either warmer or cooler). In the INFJs person's mind though, it is just the natural response to the last interaction and seems perfectly normal.

    During the intervening time, I have usually generated several possibilities for why the person has acted as they did. I need further conversation or interaction to know if I am correct or out to lunch. It either requires further thought then, or if my thoughts were correct, it can be put to rest completely and I will have decided on a course of action.

    Unfortunately, this seems to the other person like I am being nitpicky, oversensitive, or holding onto things for far too long that they figure I should be able to get over sooner. I find this especially annoys T types, followed by INFPs.

    This need for reflection also is a good reason why it is not wise to rush INFJs on coming to a conclusion/decision/resolution before they have all the loose ends tied up. Otherwise it will continue getting revisited until they are satisfied. That really blindsides the other party involved because they thought they had gotten everything straightened out and decided. It usually results in a bad reaction from the other party which makes the INFJ feel rejected/angry/hurt and sparks another spate of action/reaction/thought.
    I find that I also go away to think things over. I'm very comfortable with uncertainty. I don't rush my INFJ friend into a conclusion about a sensitive topic between the two of us. I trust that because we're friends, it will all work out. For me, if someone is my friend, I mean that, body and soul. I don't care about being right. I know who I am. I care about the relationship and if I need to apologize, forgive, listen a little longer, consider, ruminate, I hope my good friends will understand and hang in there with me. The INFJs I've known have understood, I think, that I understand their need to think things through. My INFJ friend will also want to help me sort things out and will want me to see what she feels is obvious. I always appreciate that and take her advice to heart. But, I know my own mind and I'm not always looking for a solution, just some understanding or reflection or acknowledgement that some things don't fit the mold. It's hard for my INFJ friend to conceive that there isn't a tried and true solution. That's why I go inside myself (and leave others out of it) to decide which course to take. I don't like to burden the people I care for.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serafina View Post
    If you would only say, "hey, this is how I am feeling today but I care for you and will call or text when I am feeling in the mood." I would be fine. I wouldn't be left feeling like I did some awful thing to make you hate me. While I understand how you feel intuitively (trust me I could feel those vibes even if you were on the moon) I cannot understand logically unless you tell me verbally.
    I'm not sure if I would understand myself verbally or logically. Immediately, that is. My logic follows behind as well, and when I feel like doing something, I might not be able to verbalize it to myself either. Then I think about it and decide what it was. Like, now I visited a friend who lives quite far from me, and there was a certain atmosphere during the time I was there. I still don't know if it was me, her, or just some general thing that doesn't have anything to do with us. I didn't mention it, and probably wont, because this is just a hunch. I can't logically see where it is coming from. It was just something I was aware of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serafina View Post
    How do any of you ever get married and have children..? What I mean is do you ever pursue a person you care for? Or are you willing let love go if that person doesn't pursue you? Or does INFP just not give a shit about me. Or maybe, just maybe.. I am not seeing things the way you see them....
    It's more like I've got faith in life. I don't think that I should take anything from life by force. Pursuing is "making it happen" while I want it to just happen. Kinda like good things come to those who wait, except that I am not waiting (in the way that "I now lack something and am waiting for it". It's not like that). It's like, if there is a person I like, I trust that things will evolve as far as they will, and if that doesn't suit me, then there's not much that could be done because that's as far as they can evolve.

    I don't know, though... if there is some sort of self-protection in this too. How would I know that? Maybe by pursuing I would get further with my plans, but just make up the excuse to not pursue in order to keep myself less involved with whatever I pursue, and thus making it easier for me to not get what I pursue. If this is the case, then I am really thinking of myself as someone who doesn't deserve the things other people get.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I'm not sure if I would understand myself verbally or logically. Immediately, that is. My logic follows behind as well, and when I feel like doing something, I might not be able to verbalize it to myself either. Then I think about it and decide what it was. Like, now I visited a friend who lives quite far from me, and there was a certain atmosphere during the time I was there. I still don't know if it was me, her, or just some general thing that doesn't have anything to do with us. I didn't mention it, and probably wont, because this is just a hunch. I can't logically see where it is coming from. It was just something I was aware of.



    It's more like I've got faith in life. I don't think that I should take anything from life by force. Pursuing is "making it happen" while I want it to just happen. Kinda like good things come to those who wait, except that I am not waiting (in the way that "I now lack something and am waiting for it". It's not like that). It's like, if there is a person I like, I trust that things will evolve as far as they will, and if that doesn't suit me, then there's not much that could be done because that's as far as they can evolve.

    I don't know, though... if there is some sort of self-protection in this too. How would I know that? Maybe by pursuing I would get further with my plans, but just make up the excuse to not pursue in order to keep myself less involved with whatever I pursue, and thus making it easier for me to not get what I pursue. If this is the case, then I am really thinking of myself as someone who doesn't deserve the things other people get.
    I relate very much to what you say about not wanting to take anything by force. I'm very averse to too much pursuit of someone. But if I feel strongly about someone I will do certain things to make sure they know I'm interested. I understand that I can't just not do anything and expect someone to know that I like them and am attracted to them. I don't like to straight out tell someone that I like them--that's too dry for me. I like to show them, to have them pursue me because they don't exactly know what I'm thinking or feeling and they want to find out.

  4. #124
    Member Serenes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think that's it for me with INFP friendships - I just don't know where I'm at and I'm not sure what the signs are when I am in. It seems to me that INFP friendships are always more on their terms. It's not that it's bad, because we have a fun time together and everything. It's just that I don't know that I could really count on them consistently or that things between us are as I perceive them. When they are going through something, they just disappear and I'm not sure how to help them or even where to find them in a sense. I think I'm relatively perceptive and a good listener and make a point of not offering very much advice to them, but still...
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantonym View Post
    That's exactly how I feel about INFP friendships as well. It seems like we get along great, we have fun and everything but there's always some distance between us. They're not that great on follow-up. Maybe it's just me, expecting too much. I let them have their space but still...
    If I'm constantly hanging out with someone and having a good time (talking a lot, laughing, being open, etc.) then they're probably 'in' my circle of friendship. Especially if it's usually one-on-one. For the most part, I tend to avoid & not spend time with people I dislike or am indifferent to. The way I express my care is by always trying to make the interactions between us harmonious & by spreading good feelings (like putting effort into making the experience fun, accommodating them, making them happy, listening, etc). I will be very giving to those I like and tend to put their needs above my own. So I think.. if it seems like we are putting effort into accommodating you and having a good time with you then we probably like you.

    And because of wanting to spread good feelings with my friends.. when I'm having trouble & problems of my own, I tend to keep them to myself. This is usually because I don't want to express negativity and cause my friends to worry about me or affect them too. So despite how much of a good friend I may view someone... I may just end up disappearing or withdrawing for awhile to handle my own problems. I know that this may confuse friends.. but it could also be because sometimes from knowing their personalities, I already know how certain friends would react, and I don't think they can understand or help me anyways because it's something I have to get over myself. I wouldn't want to burden them with my own problems. It's also just Really scary to tell a friend something I am currently feeling very vulnerable about & I'm not sure if I could handle criticism or want them to view me differently as well. So until I've finished reflecting and come to terms or solved what it was, I may suddenly become somewhat distant but after I'd appear again as if nothing has happened and be happy again.... I guess that can cause misunderstandings among my friends, being perceived as not trusting them enough, caring, or w/e. But really, it's just something personal and has nothing to do with them. I'd appreciate a friend a lot, if they are still there and happy to have me back even after I've disappeared for awhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    One thing I was just thinking about. My INFP friend doesn't seem to need interactions with someone to solve a problem as long as she has resolved it within herself. I, on the other hand, need the closure/input from the other person involved to feel that things are resolved. Maybe the significant factor is that Fe looks to others to find the answer and Fi looks to find the answer within itself.

    This is why INFJs feel the need to try to help along those close to them that are in distress and is why they find it painful to see them floundering and seemingly doing nothing. It's because they feel there is an external solution and they also believe that talking about it will help the answer take shape. To an INFP this is pushy and ineffectual because no one can see inside them or truly understand their unique person/situation and therefore no one except themselves can really offer the answer.

    On the other hand, INFPs tend to leave a person to their own devices and assume that they need to find the answer within themselves for it to really be solved. To an INFJ, this seems like indifference or a lack of care.
    Yeah, even though I know someone may have good intentions.. if they kept trying to force their help on me, then I'd get somewhat annoyed and feel like they were trying to suffocate & change me, prying too much, or were disappointed in me perhaps. I'd usually be more receptive to advice and help if I chose to ask them for it in the first place (because then I'd be ready for their criticism or w/e).

    I'm not sure about other INFPs... but if a friend specifically asked me for help, then I'd usually drop what I'm doing to support them. I'd visit a friend if they were horribly hurt or w/e too because I'd be happy if they had done that for me if I were in their situation. Some reasons why I wouldn't help may be because

    1) How I perceive their personality.. they seem like they don't want to be bothered and can handle their problems on their own.
    2) I don't feel that our relationship is close enough so my company may not be appreciated.
    3) If the situation isn't urgent.. and I'm busy/have problems of my own that I have to deal with.. so because I'm currently in a bad mood/situation, I don't think my current company would be much help as I might just make it worse. (ex: I'm depressed about something.. and a friend invites me out, I'd probably decline because I won't be able to be as cheery and fun when I hang out with them & might vent and bring the mood down).

    Personally for me... the best way is to be direct and honest about what you expect but not be forceful about it. I don't really like following expectations, but if a friend told me they felt cared for in a certain way.. I would keep that in mind, and if I really cared and liked them enough I would remember that and try to make them happy in the way they expressed.

    If we don't know what your expectations are, we'd most likely just treat others how we'd want to be treated (which is sometimes being left alone & not having people be too nosy when we are feeling vulnerable unless asked).
    "You may be one person to the world, but to one person you may be the world."

  5. #125

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    It was not even until I joined this forum and then two others briefly that I discovered it was even possible for me to not get along with INFPs. The few that have been in my life have been so overwhelmingly positive that it was an enormous shock to discover it was possible to not get along.

    And I mean a proper shock.

    Those Fi/Fe threads that have started popping up seasonally are alien conflicts to me, but I have been able to apply some of the issues to my RL relationship at present. My S.O. has admitted to me (as I have the habit of showing him a number of the posts and discussions that take place here) that he suspects INFPs can be such underdogs in everyday that they try to compensate by being acerbic and sarcastic within the anonymity of the internet. He admits he's done it himself to let off steam. I don't approve, but I can relate to his feelings of repression at times. My theory on the INFJs is that our Ti function is overrepresented online because we are (finally) able to take our time to exposit our ideas carefully and our very expressive faces do not translate textually. We can come off as pedantic robots.

    The Number 1 conflict in our relationship is unrelated. It is is his persistent desire to be comfortable/harmonious in order to be satisfied ("If it ain't broke, don't fix it") butting heads with my desire to be better/authentic ("It's always broke, let's fix it") in order to be satisfied. This is what drives each other crazy. :crazy: Only time will tell if it can be reconciled.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  6. #126
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    It was not even until I joined this forum and then two others briefly that I discovered it was even possible for me to not get along with INFPs. The few that have been in my life have been so overwhelmingly positive that it was an enormous shock to discover it was possible to not get along.
    With my good INFJ friend from college, we've certainly gotten along well over the years, but the whole Fi/Fe differences did help illustrate some points of misunderstanding we've had. It's been interesting to look back at how we have each flexed to keep the friendship going. I credit him with being understanding about my inconsistency (in particular, how I tend to go through periods of falling out of touch).

    I'm curious about you and your INFP's respective enneagram types. Certainly I value being authentic as an INFP, but I do understand the avoidance of conflict, too. I can't help but wonder if maybe he is a type 9, or some other conflict-avoidant enneatype.

    Plus, I do think certain types of conflict are exacerbated online... especially since we tend to focus on differences here. The conflicts are intensified since we lack the non-verbal contextual cues that signify tone and intent in the real world.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    With my good INFJ friend from college, we've certainly gotten along well over the years, but the whole Fi/Fe differences did help illustrate some points of misunderstanding we've had. It's been interesting to look back at how we have each flexed to keep the friendship going. I credit him with being understanding about my inconsistency (in particular, how I tend to go through periods of falling out of touch).

    I'm curious about you and your INFP's respective enneagram types. Certainly I value being authentic as an INFP, but I do understand the avoidance of conflict, too. I can't help but wonder if maybe he is a type 9, or some other conflict-avoidant enneatype.

    Plus, I do think certain types of conflict are exacerbated online... especially since we tend to focus on differences here. The conflicts are intensified since we lack the non-verbal contextual cues that signify tone and intent in the real world.
    Exactly and I do believe he is a Type 9 (and I'm a 4w5). Mind you, it's not confirmed. --That's my guess for him and my reading the description aloud to him from my book and him going, "Wow that sounds like me," but he hasn't taken the trouble to take the test.
    Last edited by iwakar; 02-27-2011 at 10:52 AM. Reason: 4w5 note
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    The Number 1 conflict in our relationship is unrelated. It is is his persistent desire to be comfortable/harmonious in order to be satisfied ("If it ain't broke, don't fix it") butting heads with my desire to be better/authentic ("It's always broke, let's fix it") in order to be satisfied. This is what drives each other crazy. :crazy: Only time will tell if it can be reconciled.
    I can totally relate. I used to work for my university's graphic design agency in my undergrad days and my boss was a textbook INFJ (and incidentally, the one who introduced me to the MBTI.) We get along extremely well and our dynamic at work was also excellent. We played off each other's energy and usually managed to come up with a bunch of creative, interesting ideas and concepts. The devil, however, was always in the details.

    Once I had sketched out a concept, I worked in broad strokes, just slapping things on my canvas until it told the story I had in mind. I didn't really care that much if it wasn't not completely perfect so long as the general idea and inspiration came across effectively. That is definitely not how he worked. He'd go into a complete flap if everything wasn't exactly right and fret and fret and fret until he frayed his nerves to shreds and took mine with them. The worst thing was that he never seemed to know when it was right. He'd finally be satisfied with a poster design only to open up the raw file two hours later, stare at it blearily, and decide to start making a multitude of minuscule edits (that he frequently reversed!) all over again. I could understand his anxiety about releasing (abandoning?!) a design to the public gaze but I honestly think he took it way too far.

    I love this guy and I loved brainstorming ideas with him but there comes a point when it's 3 AM and you haven't even started working on any of your homework, but you can't leave because your manager is still sitting glued to the office iMac, his tongue sticking out slightly as he painstakingly moves one letter pixel by pixel to the left, and you feel bad about ditching him, especially when he's giving you wounded puppy dog eyes. So you stay and nod and agree with whatever he's saying all the while hoping that it'll end soon, stagger back home a couple of hours later, somehow rush through whatever else you have to do, and the next day ... lather, rinse, repeat.

    I have nothing but respect and admiration for this man's perseverance and dedication to excellence, but to this day, I shudder slightly the minute he opens his mouth to talk about kerning, while he goes through my portfolio, shakes his head, points at a badly-kerned letter, and mournfully intones "Sloppy."

    Were our differences irreconciliable though? Not at all. I deeply appreciated that he cared enough not only about his own work but also about mine to want to make it better. This not something I ever got from any of the other managers. Knowing that made it much easier to be patient and compliant, not to mention the fact that we rarely, if ever, disagreed on core concepts.

    ETA: We did have one massive argument (not job or design-related) that involved a direct attack on one of my core values. To my recollection, that's the only real fight we've had. I remember getting very upset and defensive, spewing out one poorly conceived argument after another, and growing steadily more infuriated as he sat there countering each one in a despicably calm fashion. We worked it out though.

  9. #129
    Junior Member MePutPeePeeInUrCoke's Avatar
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    i agree with you nolla
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    "Little Bunny Foo Foo
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    And bopping them on the head
    I'll give you 3 chances,
    And if you don't behave,
    I will chop your little head off!" -Fairy

  10. #130
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I'm curious about you and your INFP's respective enneagram types. Certainly I value being authentic as an INFP, but I do understand the avoidance of conflict, too. I can't help but wonder if maybe he is a type 9, or some other conflict-avoidant enneatype.
    Yeah, I thought 9 vs. 4 immediately when I read that.

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    It was not even until I joined this forum and then two others briefly that I discovered it was even possible for me to not get along with INFPs. The few that have been in my life have been so overwhelmingly positive that it was an enormous shock to discover it was possible to not get along.

    And I mean a proper shock.
    I don't know any INFJs IRL that I don't get along with either. Generally, I consider them an easy type to get along with.

    Those Fi/Fe threads that have started popping up seasonally are alien conflicts to me, but I have been able to apply some of the issues to my RL relationship at present.
    Most of my Fe issues are relegated to SFJs. Frankly, in those threads, I feel it's the Fe'ers who have more of a problem with Fi than vice versa. But then, I think FPs are much more used to adapting to Fe atmospheres.

    My S.O. has admitted to me (as I have the habit of showing him a number of the posts and discussions that take place here) that he suspects INFPs can be such underdogs in everyday that they try to compensate by being acerbic and sarcastic within the anonymity of the internet. He admits he's done it himself to let off steam. I don't approve, but I can relate to his feelings of repression at times.
    Hm, I'm quite the opposite. I have to make a conscious effort to be kind, both on & offline. Well, I don't mean to imply there is an act, but I often stifle my gut reaction comments which can be sarcastic & biting, & my default demeanor is indifferent & aloof. I thought that was just a maturity issue though...I'm not an angsty teen anymore, & I try to be polite & make good impressions. I wouldn't call myself an underdog either, just low-key, and I (mostly) like it that way. If the acerbic side comes through online, its not a compensation issue so much as being relaxed a bit....of course, I still get accused of being argumentative in person, but in MBTI environments it fits in as mere analytical discussion that Ns are prone to.... I'm just rambling now...

    My theory on the INFJs is that our Ti function is overrepresented online because we are (finally) able to take our time to exposit our ideas carefully and our very expressive faces do not translate textually. We can come off as pedantic robots.
    I find the tert-Ti of INFJs somewhat exaggerated actually. Sometimes I don't think they realize they are expressing feeling evaluations & not logical Ti analysis, and that may be what is annoying. Honestly, what mainly annoys me about INFJs online is the whole "we're so rare that most other INFJs online are phonies...except for me" attitude. The other annoying part is more about other people's perceptions of them being demi-gods or something.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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