[Jungian Cognitive Functions] ENFs communication pros IRL? Not really.

[nynesneg]

Can't you just understand me? *pulls out hair*

Supposedly as ENFx we are natural geniuses when it comes to communication, and understanding people. In fact, according to type we are so charismatic and intuitive that we can easily convince people of what we think.

Do you ever have difficulty...

- Articulating your point of view in a debate. You initially speak it, then can't explain what makes perfect sense in your brain to the other person so they see your logic side of the argument. The argument seems like a waste of time, so you end up just shutting up and pretending to agree.

- Explaining a concept to someone else, a situation, or your logic for something. It makes sense in your brain, but getting the point out is difficult and you ramble then have to ask, "Did that make sense, answer your question, etc?"

- Reading another person's feelings is a piece of cake for you. But the whole picture...

- People tell you, "Sometimes it's as if we are speaking a totally different language." or "We communicate and think completely differently." when you thought everything was fine and you were trying to understand.(from a friend pov, or even a teacher/assignment pov)




I just hate it when I spend 6x the energy on a school assignment as the average person, and get a lousy grade on it because I didn't understand exactly what the teacher wanted. I pride myself in doing really good work, and go the extra mile to make it very professional. Seems that either the assignment ends up in the category of "Wow, this is the best I've ever seen.", or a C grade.

As a female I don't understand most women, beyond casual aquaintances. We just don't relate.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Most of this sounds like total lack of Te, which makes sense when you look at your functions. There's communication issues at times between sensors and intuitives, so Ns may sometimes feel like they're speaking a different language from the majority of people.

 

[nynesneg]

Anybody know which WalMart I can buy a box of telepathy at like in Star Trek? Or perhaps I could just become a "changeling" and link with people so they magically understand what I'm trying to say.

Don't get me wrong I *can* understand people's feelings easily, I can read your mood instantly, if you're having a good/bad day. I can be charismatic, friendly, and make you feel like I genuinely care, because I do. But there is alot more than that to communicating!

If I need to develop my Te, that doesn't make sense. The description says they organize and compartmentalize their world etc. I am very detail oriented, organized, I live by lists and sticky notes. I write out extensive project plans.

 

[proteanmix]

Yeah, I really think that making statements like that in type descriptions don't help people of a particular type who aren't whiz kids at such things. Most traits assigned to specific types tend be teachable and acquired skills. There may be a natural proclivity but it's like a diamond in the rough; it needs to be cut and polished, it needs to be accessed.

For me, I have this very bullish attitude that it's possible for me to communicate with the most people in some way or on some level so I don't really accept defeat in this area, I just figure I have to find another way in. It also depends on the person you're communicating with, you're not the only factor involved. This is often an exercise in frustration. I think it's best to be able to identify which circumstances and situations are the ones where you can press forward and which ones you're just an idiot banging your bloody forehead against a wall.

Realizing that you can't make someone receptive to what you have to say or impart to them is something that helps relieve the burden of being some kind of super-communicator. Some people aren't open...and then on top of that should they be? It depends on the situation. Some people will be receptive to some ideas in some situations and not to others.

There are people I don't like to communicate with because we're on such a different wavelength that all but the most superficial level of communication is possible. But even in those situations, I still have a strongly persistent feeling that I just haven't figured out how, so it's not impossible.

I don't believe the whole N/S communication problem or that this is something that can be explained through typological functions. One of the things that I incorporated into my worldview is something I learned in English 101. It's an audience analysis which can be translated from written communication to interpersonal relationships.

I've thought about this a lot so I may write more later.

 

[Clonester]

I found the first three things you highlighted in bold to be things I'm good at. And I do find other ENFP's to be good at it. But it probably is all about practice. As for your fourth point, I also found some teachers appreciated my insight while others did not.

But communication comes in different flavors so so some types are good at some forms of communication and bad at others.

 

[nynesneg]

Yeah, I really think that making statements like that in type descriptions don't help people of a particular type who aren't whiz kids at such things.

For me, I have this very bullish attitude that it's possible for me to communicate with the most people in some way or on some level so I don't really accept defeat in this area, I just figure I have to find another way in.

Some people will be receptive to some ideas in some situations and not to others.

Well yeah, I don't believe I need to convince everyone of my point of view. What I meant was I have trouble conveying my logical argument in a way that makes sense to the other person. I explain my opinion then they basically go, "Huh? That doesn't invalidate my argument at all.".

I feel like generally I'm pretty good at communicating, I make friends easily, etc etc.. But I've just noticed some particular frustrations in the areas above and wondered if anyone else has had the same problem.

I found the first three things you highlighted in bold to be things I'm good at. And I do find other ENFP's to be good at it.

It is weird. The Te/S point makes some sense, because it's like I'm really good at communicating in some areas and just don't get it in others. But I'm suprised nobody else has said they relate. I'm good at sales and communication in general, so it really suprises me to have several people in the last six months say we just communicate on totally different wavelengths, etc etc. And I tend to lose my train of thought / have trouble articulating exactly the logic of what I'm thinking if I'm trying to say something important to me.

 

[MmmCrazy]

Well yeah, I don't believe I need to convince everyone of my point of view. What I meant was I have trouble conveying my logical argument in a way that makes sense to the other person. I explain my opinion then they basically go, "Huh? That doesn't invalidate my argument at all.".

I feel like generally I'm pretty good at communicating, I make friends easily, etc etc.. But I've just noticed some particular frustrations in the areas above and wondered if anyone else has had the same problem.

I do! It's awful. I used to debate with an INTJ friend all the time and most of the time he just completely ignored all of my arguments and dismissed them as being irrational when they were completely rational to me. His favorite thing to say was that I was "generalizing". I can see generalizing being a problem when you're talking about a whole race of people or something (because then that would be racism) but when just trying to make a hypothetical point, some assumptions have to be made, am I right?

Sometimes I wanted to shout, "Why do you think I'm arguing this point if I don't believe it's rational?!"

 

[Scott N Denver]

Anybody know which WalMart I can buy a box of telepathy at like in Star Trek? Or perhaps I could just become a "changeling" and link with people so they magically understand what I'm trying to say.

Don't get me wrong I *can* understand people's feelings easily, I can read your mood instantly, if you're having a good/bad day. I can be charismatic, friendly, and make you feel like I genuinely care, because I do. But there is alot more than that to communicating!

If I need to develop my Te, that doesn't make sense. The description says they organize and compartmentalize their world etc. I am very detail oriented, organized, I live by lists and sticky notes. I write out extensive project plans.

I do! It's awful. I used to debate with an INTJ friend all the time and most of the time he just completely ignored all of my arguments and dismissed them as being irrational when they were completely rational to me. His favorite thing to say was that I was "generalizing". I can see generalizing being a problem when you're talking about a whole race of people or something (because then that would be racism) but when just trying to make a hypothetical point, some assumptions have to be made, am I right?

Sometimes I wanted to shout, "Why do you think I'm arguing this point if I don't believe it's rational?!"

I'm an INF not an ENF, but I've had TREMENDOUS problems communicating with NTJ's, and once in a blue moon with some particular S. Most S's I seem to communicate well with though. I take pride in knowing that the NTJ's that I have communication problems with point out how other people also have issues understanding them, but then the NTJ often writes it off as "other people are too stupid to understand me. Those idiots". I've gotten quite sick of hearing that from various NTJ's over the years

I've had LOTS of people tell me I communicate clearly and teach well. Some people are just so into their own world/thoughts/whatever that its hard for effective communication to occur in either direction.

 

[boondocked]

Some people are just so into their own world/thoughts/whatever that its hard for effective communication to occur in either direction.

A great point. Many people listen only to respond. They are actively building their next argument in their head while ostensibly giving you air time. Listening has to be active in order for them to grasp what you're saying, especially if they aren't the same personality type. Maybe these people just aren't making the effort.



I've never had a huuugely rough time with arguing, but maybe that's because I'm low on the eff (for an ENeff-er, anyway). My bigger problem has been realizing what people are feeling during the heat of an argument. It's like that skill just goes on vacay and I'm only brain. My ex called it the freezer effect. And then I emerge on the other side, warm and fluffy and freshly baked.

 

[Rachelinpa]

yeah, i think i get what you mean... and this is another reason why i appreciate other Ns so much. they "get" me like i "get" them--i don't have to break everything down into concrete terms or start listing a million details to prove i'm right or that my argument is valid. on the occasion where my ST friends have run into a wall in explaining something to me, i just tell them to toss it out there and we'll figure out what it means when it's still in the air. unfortunately, when i am the one tossing stuff out there to figure out the meaning, i'm usually trying to explain it at the same time which makes me look inarticulate or like i don't know what i'm talking about. additionally, i have no help from them in figuring it out and they just stare at me blankly like i'm from some other planet. thankfully, i'm funny... so that helps... at least in the sense that they forgive me... but sometimes it's annoying being seen as a ditz just because i process and deliver differently.

 

[bcvcdc]

There's communication issues at times between sensors and intuitives

that's an understatement

 

[Laurie]

I explain my opinion then they basically go, "Huh? That doesn't invalidate my argument at all.".

And I tend to lose my train of thought / have trouble articulating exactly the logic of what I'm thinking if I'm trying to say something important to me.

If something is too close to our hearts it can be hard to articulate in an emotionless (more effective) way. Discussing thoughts and theories with INTJs is a blast, as long as the INTJ isn't a jerk. (I do question some of the typing on this forum)

If you are discussing something with someone and they tell you that you didn't invalidate their argument have you ever asked them if they understand your point and ask them to state it back to you in a way that would be effective?

 

[nynesneg]

I'm an INF not an ENF, but I've had TREMENDOUS problems communicating with NTJ's, and once in a blue moon with some particular S. Most S's I seem to communicate well with though. I take pride in knowing that the NTJ's that I have communication problems with point out how other people also have issues understanding them, but then the NTJ often writes it off as "other people are too stupid to understand me. Those idiots". I've gotten quite sick of hearing that from various NTJ's over the years

Maybe that's it. It all makes perfect sense in my head, and I'm talkative, I just don't get why what comes out of my mouth doesn't make sense to the other person.

yeah, i think i get what you mean... and this is another reason why i appreciate other Ns so much. i don't have to break everything down into concrete terms or start listing a million details to prove i'm right or that my argument is valid. additionally, i have no help from them in figuring it out and they just stare at me blankly like i'm from some other planet. But sometimes it's annoying being seen as a ditz just because i process and deliver differently.

Yes!! Thank you, finally.

If you are discussing something with someone and they tell you that you didn't invalidate their argument have you ever asked them if they understand your point and ask them to state it back to you in a way that would be effective?

Excellent idea, I'll have to try that.


So back to my question, what can I do to improve the confusion/frustration?

Let me give some examples.

• Teacher points to assignment sections and I'm trying to figure out what goes in each section because it all seems like the same topic. We get confused going back and forth several times. Teacher looks at me and says "Sometimes it's as if we are speaking completely different languages." Wha?? I was trying to understand and explain what I was confused about.
• Given assignment but not sure what teacher wanted, spent 6 hours on project (others spent 30 min), to make it very nice. Turned back assignment and person who spent less time got a better grade because they did something completely different than the rest of us. wtf, I did what she told us to, I thought.
• Did another given assignment, spent extra research and included some visual examples to make it nice. I had 2x the information required in the paper and we were told to write 2 pages double spaced. I could barely fit the questions in the space to begin with, so had to leave out alot of my information. Teacher then gave me a C because I didn't include some extraneous information. :steam: I only left it out because she said it was supposed to be 2 pages!
• I'm the project team leader. I make a detailed task list and calendar timeline and give each person their list of responsibilities. I explain to them what I need from them and a week later they come back with a nice poster/sign but several things are completely not what we discussed 3x and I told them to do in the revision. Our project client seems like doesn't "get" what we are doing, has suprised responses and doesn't realize the hours of effort we spent on helping her like she asked.
• Friend and I hang out and talk about life etc etc... I feel like we have a good friendship going on, nice time hanging out. Friend says to me, "You and I just communicate on totally different pages, don't understand each other at all." Wha?? I was trying to be understanding, and thought we were having a good time talking about life. I don't have very many women friends. Haven't heard back from her since then.

All except for the last one are within the last month. What am I doing wrong?? I want to be a better communicator.