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  1. #21
    Senior Member MonkeyGrass's Avatar
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    Is she young?

    I recall being similarly inflexible from 18-21 or so. When I was younger, I used to feel rattled when someone didn't need me all of a sudden. I've changed a lot since those days.

    When I matured and saw the value of variety and friendship for friendship's sake, Things changed. Many of my friends have changed religions, sexual orientation, paradigms, core beliefs, etc, and our friendships haven't missed a step. I tend to pick my relationships for friendship and equality, and not for how special I can feel by doling out advice.

    If you've switched paradigms on an immature INFJ, she may feel rather fussy that her advice/expertise no longer applies. She may continue behaving this way until she finds her bearings and is able to value herself outside of mentoring relationships.
    I think I think more than you think I think.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyGrass View Post
    Is she young?

    I recall being similarly inflexible from 18-21 or so. When I was younger, I used to feel rattled when someone didn't need me all of a sudden. I've changed a lot since those days.

    When I matured and saw the value of variety and friendship for friendship's sake, Things changed. Many of my friends have changed religions, sexual orientation, paradigms, core beliefs, etc, and our friendships haven't missed a step. I tend to pick my relationships for friendship and equality, and not for how special I can feel by doling out advice.

    If you've switched paradigms on an immature INFJ, she may feel rather fussy that her advice/expertise no longer applies. She may continue behaving this way until she finds her bearings and is able to value herself outside of mentoring relationships.
    When I left the relationship she was around 25. I haven't had any contact with her since so I don't know how she is now.

    Yes, she certainly was rattled after my change and seemed to value me less.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    That would be the normal thing to do with those close to you who've proved their commitment to you. When this INFJ apologised to me for her behaviour, as a kind of explanation she did say that she can treat her husband badly sometimes but that he just accepts her as she is. I was like, oh. I didn't say anything but I'm sure she picked up my vibe that that kind of thing doesn't square with me.

    I've recently been investigating the Enneagram though and a lot of things I've read about unhealthy 4s really resonate with me in relation to this INFJ. I've put the relationship behind me but I do still think about her sometimes despite myself. She was one of the most significant people in my life and I still feel a kind of need to understand what happened.
    Keep in mind an unhealthy person is an unhealthy person, regardless of their type. In most cases, no matter what their type is, they will be difficult to deal with. I guess, in the case of some unhealthy INFJs, they exhibit this kind of behavior.

    I've been through some stuff with relationships that's pretty similar to what you're describing, actually. I think it's one example of why relationships can be really difficult. Very often, people act in ways which are extremely counterproductive to the relationship and are not necessarily rational. Usually, in these cases, it goes back to issues that the person has with themselves, and these problems have nothing to do with you. Talking to the person in a very respectful way can help, but in many cases, unfortunately, people need a lot of time to work on these issues. Sometimes therapy can help (although it's very expensive). Many people aren't particularly interested in improving themselves in the big picture, which is unfortunate because pretty much everyone has the potential to be an excellent mate if they applied themselves toward self-improvement.
    A hero is someone who does the right thing without expectation of reward, just because it's the right thing to do.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    I was reading the thread about how to get an INFJ to trust you and some of the stuff I read makes me think someone I know is an INFJ (really long, deep conversations, being “special” friends, etc.). We grew up together and had known each other for a long time and I really loved her like a sister. I thought we'd be friends forever. Then in my early twenties I made a huge change in lifestyle. She was happy for me, but at the same time it was like she was uncomfortable with it. It's just my guess, but my impression is that she thought she had me pegged and knew everything about me and now suddenly I was being unpredictable and different and no longer in the original category she'd put me in. I'm not friends with her any more now because she was acting really arrogant like on the one hand she did respect me, but at the same time she thought she was better than me and was embarrassed about being with me in front of certain people (not in my category). She acted like she knew everything about me (e.g. being surprised when she saw I had a certain pair of shoes she didn't know about), telling me what to do, like how to behave myself properly when meeting my in-laws for the first time, things like that, really patronising.

    I was wondering just out of curiosity if it's common for INFJs to be controlling in that way with people close to them and not treating them properly? I don't think she would behave like that with most people. She's normally very careful and guarded (while appearing friendly, simple and open and fitting in with different types of people, they would never guess – is that also typical of INFJs?). I think I was just familiar enough for her that she didn't feel a need to be careful any more.
    I had a deep meaningful almost unearthly relationship with an INFJ.. and I hear some of the things you are saying.. She did not like when I would act out of her expectations for me.. I found her very controlling and convincing in doing it.. (I am not easily manipulated) but she had me believing all sorts of nonsense by the end.. I still don't know what really happened..

    You just aren't allowed to be you in those cases.. what can I say?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LotsOfHeart View Post
    Keep in mind an unhealthy person is an unhealthy person, regardless of their type. In most cases, no matter what their type is, they will be difficult to deal with. I guess, in the case of some unhealthy INFJs, they exhibit this kind of behavior.
    Oh yes, totally. It's not the INFJ type I have an issue with. I just wanted to understand better what sort of thought/emotional patterns might have been going on with her. A lot of the feedback I've gotten plus other stuff I've read on the forum confirms a lot of impressions I had at the time, although I didn't know why I was getting those sorts of impressions. So thank you all I do miss having a friend to share those close emotions with, it's not most people's style to look for a connection like that, but what can I do, sometimes people just grow apart.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Exit View Post
    I had a deep meaningful almost unearthly relationship with an INFJ.. and I hear some of the things you are saying.. She did not like when I would act out of her expectations for me.. I found her very controlling and convincing in doing it.. (I am not easily manipulated) but she had me believing all sorts of nonsense by the end.. I still don't know what really happened..

    You just aren't allowed to be you in those cases.. what can I say?
    Yeah, I know what you mean. When unhealthy, such a type can take themselves too seriously and be so convinced that they convince you too just through the emotional impact.

    Sometimes I think this INFJ also liked to convince me of certain random things just for the feeling of power and control or so she could feel like the central character in a drama where I played the role of audience. (That would be the control you're talking about.) I remember once when I just said to her outright, "I don't believe you", and she was just silent and didn't say anything in reply.

    With the INF I was in a romantic relationship with, I said to him once about some issue to do with him, "There's something there that's not good, I don't know what it is but I can feel it and I know it." That rattled him no end! He got really mad and was like, "F*** your feeling! It doesn't know anything!! You don't know anything!!! [stabbing his finger at me]" Well, news for you my dear but NFs aren't the only ones who get feelings and know stuff intuitively. I was so stupid to buy into his romantic nonsense.

  7. #27
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    I was reading the thread about how to get an INFJ to trust you and some of the stuff I read makes me think someone I know is an INFJ (really long, deep conversations, being “special” friends, etc.). We grew up together and had known each other for a long time and I really loved her like a sister. I thought we'd be friends forever. Then in my early twenties I made a huge change in lifestyle. She was happy for me, but at the same time it was like she was uncomfortable with it. It's just my guess, but my impression is that she thought she had me pegged and knew everything about me and now suddenly I was being unpredictable and different and no longer in the original category she'd put me in. I'm not friends with her any more now because she was acting really arrogant like on the one hand she did respect me, but at the same time she thought she was better than me and was embarrassed about being with me in front of certain people (not in my category). She acted like she knew everything about me (e.g. being surprised when she saw I had a certain pair of shoes she didn't know about), telling me what to do, like how to behave myself properly when meeting my in-laws for the first time, things like that, really patronising.

    I was wondering just out of curiosity if it's common for INFJs to be controlling in that way with people close to them and not treating them properly? I don't think she would behave like that with most people. She's normally very careful and guarded (while appearing friendly, simple and open and fitting in with different types of people, they would never guess – is that also typical of INFJs?). I think I was just familiar enough for her that she didn't feel a need to be careful any more.
    I only know one INFJ well(an older woman), so I have no idea what's typical. What you described made sense to me because that's how the one INFJ I do know is. She has a tendency to box people into her ideals, which are not very fluid, and if they come outside of the box....

    She has a thing with always thinking people think they are better than she is when they make changes in their lives. I don't know if it's jealousy, but that's what it looks like to me. She also has a hard time rejoicing in the good fortune of others. For example, instead of getting all teary eyed and happy during shows like Extreme Home Makeover, she grumbles about her own misfortunes and gets upset that no one entered her into the contest.

    What can you do? Maybe she'll come back sometime in the future. The INFJ I know stopped talking to one of her best friends for nearly 15 years, and then started talking to her again recently.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    I know that the fact that I was in this small circle mattered a lot in relation to the big change I made in my life. What surprised me about her behaviour was that the change actually gave me a lot more in common with her. I changed my religion to the same religion she is – not because of her at all, this was a very independent decision made after years of research. She knew over these years that I was doing a lot of investigation into different religions and philosophies but I think it may have shocked her more than I realised at the time that I actually went through with making the real, practical life changes. I had never been a bad friend to her. I think what me being suddenly in this new category meant for her was that if I had been in that category from the beginning she would not have shown certain things, shared certain thoughts, behaved a certain way (and from what's been said it seems it's a big deal for an INFJ to share things from their real self). And now I was in a category of people who should not have the information about her that I did. Seeing as we were such close friends I didn't understand how she could be so fearful of me knowing her and her past with this new perspective. I didn't judge her at all. She is deep down insecure though, so it's probably those issues personal to her mixed up with being an INFJ.

    It's very sad. She's a really special person and I valued my relationship with her a lot. But I had to get out of it for my own self-respect.
    Ooh, yes I can see an INFJ threatened by their worlds colliding acting out of kilter in the way you described. She may not even realize that she feels threatened by your closeness and knowledge of her. Perhaps you also felt a little like her refuge from the face she has to present to the people you all know in common now? I imagine it is particularly jarring if you take an INFJ by surprise in such a way and they aren't self-aware enough to really acknowledge they are being an ass and can't control such things.

    I recall a friend telling me that an INJ opened up to him quite dramatically and he saw him at his most vulnerable once and then sometime later the INJ up and moved and was never able to be contacted again. When he related that tale to me I remember thinking that was something I could see myself doing if I was mortified enough. (Not that I consciously think I would do it, it just resonated with me as an attractive option.) INJs can have a lot of trouble with being vulnerable or even acknowledging it to themselves.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    She has a thing with always thinking people think they are better than she is when they make changes in their lives. I don't know if it's jealousy, but that's what it looks like to me.
    I don't know if the INFJ I know is exactly like that but small signs did make me think she had some sort of issue with positive change in others. Not that she was unhappy for others, more that it seemed to trigger something sensitive in her to do with herself. I can only speculate but it's one thing that could be part of the bigger picture of why she suddenly became uncomfortable with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanveane View Post
    Perhaps you also felt a little like her refuge from the face she has to present to the people you all know in common now?
    Yes, I think one thing she valued in me was that. With me she had the freedom to show a different side. But she has various different faces, as I learned later on. I think she feels most free and safe when she has the control to have these different options.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanveane View Post
    INJs can have a lot of trouble with being vulnerable or even acknowledging it to themselves.
    I'm starting to understand this better now...

    I suppose I shouldn't take it personally but I feel rather like I was played for a fool. Because I was being my authentic self while she was also presenting herself as authentic when actually she could only do that so long as she felt she was one step ahead of me, so long as she thought she knew me better than I knew myself, so long as A, B, C, D, etc., whatever the conditions were. Which is pretty arrogant... She helped me a lot though. The good she gave me far outweighs the bad, so I should try to see her in that perspective. It's hard though, because the whole trust that was the foundation of all those things for me is broken now and when I look back, the whole thing looks tainted.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    What can you do? Maybe she'll come back sometime in the future. The INFJ I know stopped talking to one of her best friends for nearly 15 years, and then started talking to her again recently.
    Hmm, that would be interesting. My first feeling is it wouldn't be impossible but then when I think about it I would say the possibility is very slim because coming back would make her position even more vulnerable than it was when I let our relationship go.

    By the way, I really appreciate this information and the help I've gotten with understanding this issue. From what I've gathered it's a thorny topic for INFJs so thanks for sharing your views with me.

  10. #30
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Gerbah, I think one problem that many INFJs have is the wish to please people and also to remain true to themselves and also to live up to the standards they have for themselves. Sometimes there is a tendancy to hide whatever you can't trust other people to treat respectfully, or to hide what you think would disappoint those you think most of. In most cases, it is not a matter of planned out deception, but rather little things that add to each other until there is a whole separate side that you feel you can't share. She probably exposed that side to you, but as you became part of that other part of her world, it felt like she had just messed up so badly and you knew about it and others didn't and she didn't know what to do about it.

    For me too, I find I have very diverse groups of friends. Generally they either don't connect well together, or I'm worried about how to put them all together. It feels like my worlds are colliding. This might have been part of the problem as well.

    Certainly INFJs are hard on themselves and do have an ideal of what they want to be. They are deeply ashamed and embarrassed when they mess up on that and if anyone does know, it is only someone very very close.

    I'm not sure if she so much wanted to feel superior to you or be a step ahead of you in solving your problems, so much as that maybe she felt left behind by your progress, ashamed of her own perceived lack of progress and vulnerable, so was defensive (and became OFFENSIVE!)

    I guess you'd have a better guess at all of this, but that's my perspective on it.

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