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Thread: Idealism

  1. #11
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    I've been trying to prioritize elements of my life, but I don't have any reliable scale to measure against. When I consider means and ends, each end only becomes a mean again. I guess it ends at sustainable happiness? But for me, happiness is not sustainable, and to attain my goals is to destroy the very hope I have enjoyed, as I am forced to compare reality with my ideals, and therefore to be disappointed. And so to bypass the inevitable transitoriness of happiness, I must approach the realization of my visions constantly, with their fulfillment as my perceived objective, while allowing conditions to be such that this realization can never occur. Though I would have been hesitant to admit it at first, my own reason has nevertheless forced me to conclude that fruit is sweetest before it is ever picked.
    there are no "final ends" other than "to be happy". "happiness is the final end" thats intrinsically valuable; a synthetic a priori perhaps; the only metaphysical truth thats self evident to everyone. There really is absolutely no point to doing anything if it doesnt at least at some point "make you happy".

    Following XYZ religion? whats the point, unless it makes you happy?
    Saving children from starvation? Whats the point, unless it makes you happy?
    Having 2.1 children and a white picket fence? Whats the point, unless it makes you happy?

    You are frustrated that you're happiness seeking is never "finished". This is because you are viewing happiness as the result of efficient causes, like something that follows mechanical processes. The happiness that results from efficient mechanical causes, is indeed chemically fleeting. The more metaphysical end of "contentment", is not something that simply represents the end of an efficient cause.

    1. Every time you get frustrated at your current happiness being fleeting: its rather like following the north star, and getting upset that you "havent gotten there yet".

    2. People do however, get to meaningful places by following the north star. It doesnt matter that you never "get to the north star".


    3. So to relate back to happiness: dont get frustrated with the efficient ends of happiness, keep your eyes focused on the final ends of happiness, and let that final end be a star that guides you through the small transient efficient ends here on earth.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yloh View Post
    I too can relate to the reality of always wanting to achieve a goal. To me life just feels empty with out something to strive for. If there is no goals, then what is there for me to do?

    This is what the SPs and the NTs are great for. SPs are great at reminding us to appreciate the hear and now and just have fun for a change. The NTs are great at making our ideas more realistic, so we can actually get something done.

    I will admit I do get the most excited at the idea of something, but I feel most satisfied when something is completed.
    Something that makes you smile and laugh Sometimes we gotta have goals so we can push our fun to the next level. You can only get so much fun out of a little 3 cylinder Hyundai.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Yloh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Something that makes you smile and laugh Sometimes we gotta have goals so we can push our fun to the next level. You can only get so much fun out of a little 3 cylinder Hyundai.
    Great advise, this is something I've been learning how to do in the past year or two.

  4. #14
    Self sustaining supernova Zoom's Avatar
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    From what I've noticed, always having yon eyes on the North Star - or a goal, an end point to strive toward - can make it quite possible to miss all the beautiful things right in front of ye. Seasons changing, people entering a life who might truly enrich it, other opportunities one hadn't even thought of... the day-to-day loveliness, the small things, as someone once put it.

    Finding a good medium I think involves being on one's tip-toes - feet on the ground, but drawn up toward the clouds by dreams (or maybe just a kite, if ye wish to be more literal).

    Things don't have to meet idealistic standards to feel magical or wondrous or be amazing. Realising that the "real" world won't meet those standards (for most, at least) doesn't mean that cynicism must rule or that hope is lost to the grey expanse of daily routine.

    There is always something to find joy in.

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    Member tsumatachi_san's Avatar
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    I think that idealism is good in doses. It helps you be creative (writing, painting etc) as you channel your dreams into your work.
    It's not so great if you compare everything to your idealised version, as nothing can be as good (in your opinion) as when it's a concept in your mind (as someone said here, that it's good until you get what you want).
    It's a pretty useful thing really, in the long run though. It keeps you thinking about the things that could be and even helps you to achieve your goals because you will believe it will be as good as you believe it will (it gives you motivation).

  6. #16
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    From what I've noticed, always having yon eyes on the North Star - or a goal, an end point to strive toward - can make it quite possible to miss all the beautiful things right in front of ye. Seasons changing, people entering a life who might truly enrich it, other opportunities one hadn't even thought of... the day-to-day loveliness, the small things, as someone once put it.
    Agreed. Only once I started noticing walls and obstacles getting in the ways of my idealistic goals, I kinda gave up and put them on hold, and then starting seeing all of the people in my life. and Our relationships. and Just all the thinks I never really paid attention to before.

  7. #17
    full of love Kingfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winged View Post
    Finding a good medium I think involves being on one's tip-toes - feet on the ground, but drawn up toward the clouds by dreams (or maybe just a kite, if ye wish to be more literal).

    Things don't have to meet idealistic standards to feel magical or wondrous or be amazing. Realising that the "real" world won't meet those standards (for most, at least) doesn't mean that cynicism must rule or that hope is lost to the grey expanse of daily routine.

    There is always something to find joy in.
    i really like your post.
    that is really key in life i think, to find happiness and acceptance in what is happening right now. and your dreams are better for it, when they are based on this positive foundation, and they can expand on the happiness you already feel.

    but in dire situations dreams are really all you have to keep you going, and sometimes there isn't any happiness in what you have. so i think it is about balancing the two based on how much you need them in your life right now; dreams, and contentment with your current reality.

  8. #18
    Senior Member nynesneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yloh View Post
    I too can relate to the reality of always wanting to achieve a goal. To me life just feels empty with out something to strive for. If there is no goals, then what is there for me to do?

    I will admit I do get the most excited at the idea of something, but I feel most satisfied when something is completed.
    Oh, I can completely relate! My dreams are a vital part of what gives me so much passion and enthusiasm for life! In a large part they define who I am and make me unique.

    But then I'm still in my early twenties, so perhaps that is why?

    Without dreams, goals, a purpose, desires, I would feel like something was terribly missing inside of me. (I know, you guys probably didn't intend to generalize all four of these together, but to me they are very much interconnected.) Of course I enjoy my current relationships, but alot of what I do is guided my my dreams for my life. And of course helping people along the way.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Phoenix_400's Avatar
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    It is within our nature to strive for something better. To find our soul-mate. To build that utopia. To seek the ideal solution. It is in our nature and it is what pushes the human race forward. Pushing towards your goals is a noble thing. It is the right thing.

    However, I find that most people forget to adjust fire for reality. They get SO focused on the ideal, they forget to live in the moment and that things in the moment can greatly affect their ideal. If you keep your eyes solely on the finish line, you're going to trip over a rock. Life isn't a smooth track by any means. Indeed it is fraught with great peril, but also great beauty. Don't forget to look around. Enjoy the scenery, but remain ever vigilant of the thorns hidden beneath the roses.

    Pay attention to the path, for it must walked if your destination is ever to be reached.

    ...and now that my rambling is finished, I give you Random Quotes...

    "Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."

    "The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value. I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death."

    "Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small people who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing."

    ....and finally, to appease the tech geek in me:

    “Here’s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The trouble-makers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status-quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify, or vilify them. But the only thing you can’t do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do.” – Apple
    "People in glass houses shouldn't use Windex when living near bird sanctuaries."- myself

    "We are never alone my friend. We are constantly in the company of victories, losses, strengths and weaknesses. Make no mistake, life is war...and war is hell. Those who fight the hardest will suffer the most...but that's what you have to do: Fight. As long as you're feeling pain, then there's hope...because only the dead do not suffer." -RD Metcalf
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #20
    Senior Member rainoneventide's Avatar
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    I can really relate to this, the way our ideals clash with reality. I feel discouraged and disheartened whenever I take in the present and compare it with the glittering ideals stuck inside my mind. The underlying thought is that I can only find happiness and contentment when my reality matches those ideals, and that feels impossible.

    I believe you can only find happiness within yourself at the present moment--there's nothing wrong with chasing some distant dream, but if you believe you'll only feel satisfied once you reach it, then you never will. Sort of like that "the grass is greener on the other side" saying.

    So somehow, you've got to learn how to enjoy the journey. You've got to pause and admire the scenery. Otherwise, how will you know when you've finally reached that coveted destination?

    Finding ways in the present to work toward your ideals helps. For instance, I've got this hazy dream of becoming a popular published author. I imagine myself owning a nice, cozy apartment in the city, surrounded by books and a good view of the skyline, typing away at my computer as I work on another novel. I ask myself, What can I do at this precise moment that will push me closer to that dream?

    Right now, I can stop writing this post and start writing my novel. I can do that, and it's a stepping stone toward my dream or ideal future.

    If your ideals aren't specific enough for you to pinpoint certain things that you can do now to help realize them, then like a previous poster suggested, you can relax and let yourself daydream, immersing yourself in your ideals and fleshing them out, instead of just imagining things as "better".

    I don't know, this is just the advice I've been trying to follow myself. It's a lot more comforting than thinking, "Well, I'm screwed."
    "So I say, live and let live. That’s my motto. Live and let live.
    Anyone who can’t go along with that, take him outside and shoot the motherfucker."
    - George Carlin

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