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  1. #41
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I figured her being engaging/reclusive on and off was just part of her personality. Funnily enough she used to think I had a problem with her because I didn't talk a lot with her, which is confusing because I would think she of all people wouldn't take that personally. :P

    The part about not liking/disliking people is interesting to me though... I have very strong feelings about a people - I'd like to be more neutral!

    Do you find this the same with long term relationships e.g. friends?
    She probably didn't take it personally and was just studying your behavioral patterns. She most likely told you in a nice and pleasing way, so you would be receptive to the questioning.

    My long term friends are dear to me, but if they were to disappear tomorrow, I would hardly notice. I would most likely spend a few days wondering what happened, then I would get distracted and forget. If that person is really close to me, then his/her name would pop up into my head occasionally at random intervals.

  2. #42
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Honestly, it's that direct confrontation is a complete pain in the ass. You know that when we're directly involved in conflict, we're not out to work out our differences, we're out to completely annihilate the person on the other side. ).
    Is this an INTJ shadow surfacing? It sounds like Te on massive utter dominating steriods. The reason I ask is that if you reach that point with me-utter anniliation-I shut you out in an Fe doorslam. INFJ shadow. It-like your anger I bet-only lasts a few days, then I resume the Te dominant approach, where I bet you guys resume an Fe subtle approach. (This is why I study you guys-you serve as a reflecting pool and allow me to triagulate myself)

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Don't do that. I promise you, you won't like the results. As you're aware of, an ExTP without the Fe on is an xxFP's worst nightmare. We'll be constantly saying objectively true but horribly offensive things (like I said, ExTPs when hanging around each other don't take very long to pull out the most horribly offensive humor imaginable) without even realizing how much harm we're inflicting. Just put up with the bullshit and understand that we're doing it in your best interest.
    ).
    Fuck that. The problem is that Te inside my head is the harshest critic ever. I will never be good enough, smart enough, competent enough. This is why enfps never stop searching for self improvement. We cant or we count ourselves as FAIL.

    So if I screw up I need to know. Even if it hurts or is painful, I need to understand what I did. Now most of the time my ENTPs are not pissed at me, just being Fe nice in discussions or whatever. But since I know it is Fe-nice, the game is up, and I know it isnt real-thus is inefficient and Te judges it as pointless. So I call them out on it. My baby entps are hysterical as they dont have a good Fe wall and say seriously obnoxious shit-which is true, thus of value.

    This may be me moreso than most enfps-I interact with you guys mostly as NeTe and we think well together.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    “Also the NFPs above-I think that is really what we want-affirmation and acknowledgement of our emotional state. (I just figured this out last week.
    I have been using it to calm my other enfp coworker-it is amazing how easy it is) Once acknowledged, then we can become more rational and self evaluate.”

    See, this drives us nuts, because it's horribly selfish. Sorry, but you'll admit that it's true - that we have to focus on YOUR needs before anything else can be settled is about as selfish an idea as I can think of. (See, that's when the Fe is turned off).
    That is hysterically ironic as I spend a lot of time validating and affirming the intellectual contributions of all my ENTPs. Verbal affirmation works, but even better is working to implement the idea-the ultimate affirmation. The lack of Fe makes you say this honestly but I’d put 100 bucks on Fe/Fi differences being the driver for the concept of this being “selfish”.

    This is the curse of Ne-Ne doms seek external validation. But instead call it “calibration”. I need someone to help calibrate my Fi judgment-my emotions-against. You need some one to help calibrate your Ti judgments-your ideas-against. In both cases the calibration has to ideally come from someone you are connected with. Fi for me, Ti for you, otherwise it is null. The more confident and developed we become the less we need external calibration. I can sneak by as NeTe with my ENTPs and semi-calibrate for them. The best is to find another ENTP-one they respect-to calibrate against.

    I can see this as being annoying as hell when you are in Ti mode and we seek Fi calibration-it is illogical and bumps the Ti train off the tracks. However treat it as a tool in the toolbox-annoying as hell but by using it you can get the ENFP to chill enough to apply logic. What is the end goal? To solve the issue, advance your goal. Use the tools at hand.

  3. #43
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiver View Post
    I just don't see the lying thing. I can't imagine naturally saying something to make other people feel better that I didn't actually mean. My wonderful SJ husband says things all the time to other people that I absolutely know are not true, like, "I'll come over next weekend," when I know he has other plans. It took me a good 10 years of correcting him in front of the other person before I realized that he was full of shit and lying for social purposes. Sometimes I have to just walk away, it makes me so uncomfortable.
    I don’t think this is universal. I think it may be something odd with ENTPs who use a ton of Fe maybe-or maybe an odd stage where NeTi and NeFe are sort of conflicting with each other. My young ENTP will just not say anything, but my older one 9/9 will tell outright lies. I need to do a lot more observation though, just noticed it crops up now and then.

    Quote Originally Posted by SerengetiBetty View Post
    same here. I've just been in quite a few impromptu things like cartwheel competitions and other crazy physically fun things that tend to rip the hell out of cheapo jeans but my $250 pair are still ticking .
    Dude that’s awesome. I think Ti makes not just your minds precise-but your actions as well. I, lacking Ti, am a total slob and destroy everything. So I have to buy cheap stuff, so that when I hop like a bunny down the hall at work and trip over the carpet, dumping coffee on my dress, I can buy another one at goodwill or wal-mart for ten bucks. I like to buy nice used stuff as it actually fits before utter destruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    See, my normal way of communicating is seen as "direct confrontation" to most others. You may have to muster that up as an ENFP, but this is my natural mode of conversing. I have been called pushy, direct and aggressive more often than I can count. But I am not deliberately so. My curiosity is insatiable so I just keep on with something until I have exhausted all angles. Needless to say, I never have a problem addressing an issue.
    I think that I see this as more normal communication. Female entps and myself get along great. Maybe it was all the time in grad school or that I use too much Te, but I’d rather direct confrontation. My enfp coworker however thinks I am scary and has told me I am rude, in a gentle way of course. I just snickered. The ENTPs and ISTJs who make up most of my workforce seem to enjoy it.

  4. #44
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Concreteness is the name of the game with Ti. It's all about precision, which is why INTPs are so fucking wordy. Inconsistencies are the one thing that will make their hair stand on end.

    I know we are using the same words but I can't help feeling like we are talking about different things. Can you please define concreteness, coherence, truth and fact as you see it? Let's be as precise as possible.
    Can I buy some Ti somewhere??? I cant understand what my favorite INTP is saying about half the time. We communicate on some alternate plane of reality, but we really like each other and I kick ENTP ass for him, and he fixes stuff for me so I can sell it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I see this in the ENTP at my work (people are completely bowled over by her when they meet her), but staff who work with her over time complain that she's completely fake - one day polite and nice, the next day ignoring everyone or having a complete fit.

    I've tried very hard to get to know/understand her but it seems like there's no way to know if she genuinely likes you or is just playing with you to serve her own purposes....
    You have to think with her for her to qualify as a friend. No touchy-feely, She will stop being polite, look you directly in the eye and say "that's incorrect" and then you proceed to argue for the next hour. When you spend most of your time endlessly debating with her, or brainstorming, then you might be friends. The harsher and more critical she is about your ideas, the more honest and true she is being. The polite look-Fe mask-not real.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    IxFJs are intimately interested in others above themselves, if you catch their interest
    WARNING: utter bullshit warning below

    But is it real? Keep in mind-when I say reality I mean I think Fe is a real emotive force to an Fe user. But what biological role does it play? Is it true and authentic? Very recent-ie as of yesterday after having breakfast with an ENFJ, the question in my mind. Fe doms ask questions about others, "how are you?, how is the group? is everyone happy? why is anyone not happy? what can I do to make others happy?"

    But, shit happens. We will not always be happy. Yet Fe tells people to not express that and instead bundle it away and hide it and only ask/care about the other person. For me-I see this as not being authentic. (of course I am Fi and utterly Fe stupid) Authenticity is everything for me. Be true to what you are, do not change for others, Be what you are at your core. If I am not happy, I say so. It isnt selfish, it is honest.

    Yet Fe utterly seems to counter all of that... It reminds me of why you dont see albino zebras-they are the first ones to get eaten by the lions as they stand out visually. Also the weak animals get picked out of a herd first.

    In a society controlled by Fe social reciprocal obligations, weakness is a sign of a poor person to forge a reciprocal bond with. When you need them they may not be there-they may be too weak or broken to be of use.

    Also you dont want to forge bonds with those who seem odd or different-they will stand out and get eaten as well, thus not being around for reciprocal obligations.

    So Fe rules:
    1) Help others but dont expose your own emotional weakness
    2) Avoid forming bonds with those who shows signs of emotional weakness as they are different and missed rule one and thus might be eaten by lions.

    Fi rules (which are no less fucked up and quite selfish):
    1) Helps others who are showing signs of emotional/physical weakness as Fi users actually "feel" thier pain and it hurts the Fi user not to help them.
    2) Show signs of emotional weakness when in need, to trigger a painful emotive response in other Fi users, so they will help you.

    good lord, no wonder we are all so confused.

    Also doesnt this hit ENTPs really oddly? NeTi is not always a kind pleasent creature. There is a beautiful harshness there, a raptor like clever-cruelness. A calculating, crystalline predator. I accept this and find it beautiful as it is authentic. It seems an odd dicotomy to force that cutting reality-an albino zebra by definition-into wearing the stripes of the rest of the herd via Fe reciprocal obligations.

    I need to go drink for a bit, as my neurons are scrambled.

  5. #45
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    Is this an INTJ shadow surfacing? It sounds like Te on massive utter dominating steriods. The reason I ask is that if you reach that point with me-utter anniliation-I shut you out in an Fe doorslam. INFJ shadow. It-like your anger I bet-only lasts a few days, then I resume the Te dominant approach, where I bet you guys resume an Fe subtle approach. (This is why I study you guys-you serve as a reflecting pool and allow me to triagulate myself)
    No, just the dark side of Fe, really. You're not playing nice, so we're not going to play nice - and we're really good at not playing nice. We got smacked around for it quite a bit as youngsters. We like watching things blow up, both from a creative standpoint of seeing how something is put together, and from the sheer appreciation of destruction.

    The INTJ shadow is the more "aloof" behavior we take to avoid this potentiality, simply because we were punished for it a lot as kids.

    Fuck that. The problem is that Te inside my head is the harshest critic ever. I will never be good enough, smart enough, competent enough. This is why enfps never stop searching for self improvement. We cant or we count ourselves as FAIL.

    So if I screw up I need to know. Even if it hurts or is painful, I need to understand what I did. Now most of the time my ENTPs are not pissed at me, just being Fe nice in discussions or whatever. But since I know it is Fe-nice, the game is up, and I know it isnt real-thus is inefficient and Te judges it as pointless. So I call them out on it. My baby entps are hysterical as they dont have a good Fe wall and say seriously obnoxious shit-which is true, thus of value.
    As I alluded to earlier, it's not easy for us to do this, because we are really damn effective at it, and usually reap hugely negative consequences for it. Fe is much more of a defense mechanism than you might think. Given how Ti values verifiable truth, do you think the development of the Fe tertiary was an easy process? It's basically the realization that you have to sell out in some way to get by - for any intuitive, that would be a difficult process. So much of it is still puzzled over the seeming inability of others to get over themselves and just look at things rationally, without any concern over self-image or the image being portrayed to others.

    That is hysterically ironic as I spend a lot of time validating and affirming the intellectual contributions of all my ENTPs. Verbal affirmation works, but even better is working to implement the idea-the ultimate affirmation. The lack of Fe makes you say this honestly but I’d put 100 bucks on Fe/Fi differences being the driver for the concept of this being “selfish”.
    Umm, there's also a third way - point out every flaw in the problem until it gets to the point that it's clearly unworkable. Just so you know, this won't be taken as offensive.

    The difference is, even if you find this onerous, it's still specifically related to the task at hand. Pointing out why one idea is good, or why it won't work doesn't just help the person with validation, it also helps everyone else with external parameters and constraints they need to know are important in solving the problem.

    Fi is inherently selfish - I think you've said something to this extent. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I'll be damned if it doesn't drive us non-xxFPs crazy.

    This is the curse of Ne-Ne doms seek external validation. But instead call it “calibration”. I need someone to help calibrate my Fi judgment-my emotions-against. You need some one to help calibrate your Ti judgments-your ideas-against. In both cases the calibration has to ideally come from someone you are connected with. Fi for me, Ti for you, otherwise it is null. The more confident and developed we become the less we need external calibration. I can sneak by as NeTe with my ENTPs and semi-calibrate for them. The best is to find another ENTP-one they respect-to calibrate against.
    There's a time and a place for everything. Unfortunately, the Ti-calibration is much more appropriate in a work environment than the Fi-calibration, wouldn't you agree? The Ti-calibration, which admittedly can be a little silly and pointless to others, nevertheless still gives out raw data with which to form ideas, doesn't it? Whereas the Fi-calibration process isn't exactly productive in an objective sense, is it?

    That being said, neither hold a candle to the absolute productivity sink that is Ne - people just don't get that sometimes, we need a day where we do absolutely jack shit. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to have those days where we advance two months in the course of six hours.

    I can see this as being annoying as hell when you are in Ti mode and we seek Fi calibration-it is illogical and bumps the Ti train off the tracks. However treat it as a tool in the toolbox-annoying as hell but by using it you can get the ENFP to chill enough to apply logic. What is the end goal? To solve the issue, advance your goal. Use the tools at hand.
    It's not the logicality that's the issue - most of us have come to terms with the illogicality of the world. The aggravating part is that after instance two or three, it really grinds our gears that the (mostly undeveloped, I'm guessing that you don't fall into this category) Fi dom/aux has no external sense of the burden they are placing on everyone else, nor is there any sense of this behavior doing "wrong" by others. Even in the circumstances where there is a bit of a mea culpa, it would be much nicer if it could be sublimated until a more appropriate period, like at home or over a beer after work.

    You might counter "well Ti does the same thing", but like I've said earlier, that validation is generally pertinent to the organizational goals, something like "well, if you aren't going to listen to my ideas, why the hell did you bring me on board in the first place?" Not in the sense of "I need validation", but more of "if I'm just being ignored, then I'm just wasting my time here, aren't I?"

  6. #46
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Honestly, it's that direct confrontation is a complete pain in the ass. You know that when we're directly involved in conflict, we're not out to work out our differences, we're out to completely annihilate the person on the other side. Needless to say, this leads to some other undesirable repercussions. Much better to just exclude the person from your hurricane of rage than it is to have everyone thinking how much of an asshole you are because you just nailed every single emotional vulnerability of a person in one screaming tirade.
    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post

    However, when I am deliberately and consciously confronting someone, above and beyond my usual directness, I am out to destroy you. Which is why I often walk away. I've learned over the years that the punishment rarely fits the crime. Winning (and destroying my competition) at all costs is rarely worth the effort, or the subsequent damage control, over a topical argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Woo, you guys can do that?

    How come?

    (The Fi analogue in my own behaviour? Perhaps those times when I chill right down and deliberately count the other person as an obstacle rather than an individual. If I'm especially confident, it can include sneering. But that's Te/Fi on the rag and doesn't happen much because it's costly.)
    Ti+Fe, flavoured by Ne = poetic justice

    [it's not just about me teaching 'you' a lesson, but, I'll make it so that 'you' will feel as if the whole world was set just so, for you to take this hit....very few people understand or are aware of my intent/part in such actions cuz it's very slow, calculated, almost off-hand, and it may appear as if I myself couldn't possibly have been able to do it; like it's more a 'natural occurance' presented by the world, at large, catered ("randomly"? ) specifically to said person]

    ^I never get here, unless the bastard deserves this [too much effort for small silly shyte]...and, then, it's on, and once it's on...there's very rarely a 'pull the plug' emergency lever.

  7. #47
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    But is it real? Keep in mind-when I say reality I mean I think Fe is a real emotive force to an Fe user. But what biological role does it play? Is it true and authentic? Very recent-ie as of yesterday after having breakfast with an ENFJ, the question in my mind. Fe doms ask questions about others, "how are you?, how is the group? is everyone happy? why is anyone not happy? what can I do to make others happy?"
    I think it is real. It's an authentic desire to reorganise the outer world into a happier place. The happiness comes from the organisation. See, it seems like there's an analogy: where an Fi user will feel happy or unhappy if the inner world is in or out of whack, an Fe user will be genuinely pleased and/or upset by the state of the outer world. That's kind of like a "Duh!" comment, but still, it's taking me a while to recognise.

    State of the outer world? Organisation? It'd be truly interesting to know more clearly what parts of the outer world fall properly under the Fe system gaze. Undoubtedly body language is an Fe thing, or at least a thing that an Fe user will try reading. Tone of voice. Choice of action (and that action's cultural meaning). And so on and deeper. But what exactly? When Jung talks about this, he talks about "the object", but which object? What are the objects of the Fe system?


    "People" and "Feelings" are superficial answers. Saying just that will hide the nature of the system.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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