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  1. #31
    Member Nat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    entps and fe.

    1. an amazing social grace-they can seem very sincere and very sweet. but not artificially/used car salesman like an estp can. They use it much more smoothly. In meetings they can be exceptional at redirecting whole conversations, smoothing ruffled feathers, converting you to thier ideas. They can be very nice and polite. I am at the point that I enjoy this interaction, I play with them, but if they are not close, I do not trust them. Mt Fi cant help but respond and smile and interact, however my Te sits inside logically understanding the game. Often I think they are sincere-they do not know what they really want or feel-they are confused by thier own emo.
    I see this in the ENTP at my work (people are completely bowled over by her when they meet her), but staff who work with her over time complain that she's completely fake - one day polite and nice, the next day ignoring everyone or having a complete fit.

    I've tried very hard to get to know/understand her but it seems like there's no way to know if she genuinely likes you or is just playing with you to serve her own purposes....

  2. #32
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Do we have to? I know I'm going to be caught out for using circular definitions. By concreteness I think I mean no more than the subject of the thinking is recognised as a thing outside of the person. Actually, more than that--the subject of the thinking is understood to be composed of properties that can be discovered and once discovered don't need to be questioned (or if questioned, then the object ceases to the thing under discussion). Maybe Te accepts that there is a certain level of discussion beyond which discussion is pointless. For a Te discussion to work, some aspects of the discussion are logically primitive.

    Ti, by contrast, I am assuming, allows everything to be discussed. Indeed, intends that everything will be discussed or the discussion cannot be considered adequate. As such, the key measure in Ti discussion is how well whatever is said in the discussion sits with (coheres with) EVERYTHING ELSE YOU KNOW IN TOTALITY!
    You mean kind of like how we are communicating now? For you, it's enough that certain words were thrown out and a general comprehension is assumed. For me, I need to know how your words match not only the general definition, but the definition in this specific context before I can continue.

    I wonder if there's not a corresponding few things to say about Fe and Fi. Fe takes some level of feeling to be basic, or maybe that at some point the object of feeling is dissected only pointlessly, whereas Fi says YOU CAN'T DRAW THAT ARBITRARY LINE THERE! (And what that means, yes, you guessed it, I don't know. I'm just intuiting connections here.)
    I think you are on to something. Fi is used in the same way as Ti, in my observation. Values and feelings change depending on the context, whereas with Fe, there is a general consensus of what is "good" and what is "bad", regardless of the current circumstance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I see this in the ENTP at my work (people are completely bowled over by her when they meet her), but staff who work with her over time complain that she's completely fake - one day polite and nice, the next day ignoring everyone or having a complete fit.

    I've tried very hard to get to know/understand her but it seems like there's no way to know if she genuinely likes you or is just playing with you to serve her own purposes....
    You maybe shouldn't read so much into it. Her being engaging one moment and reclusive the next most likely has nothing to do with you or whomever she is conversing with at the moment. Most likely, she is engaging when her brain is clear of other things, and reclusive when her mind is busy processing something.

    I find it also very difficult to like or dislike a person. I had a very short memory and a very short attention span. If my brain is clear and receptive and you are in front of me and are being pleasant, you will get the impression that I like you. If I am otherwise engaged, or you are acting douchebaggy, you will get the impression that I don't. Every time I see you, I look at you with a clean slate unless some horrible transgression has occurred. In which case, wait a few weeks for your slate to be clean again. Either way, I don't spend much time or energy thinking about if I like someone in general or not. I'm mostly neutral. You simply exist.

    A lot of times people feel that they are close to me because I "confide" in them. But what they don't understand is that I just speak to whomever is in front of me. It could be you or it could be your mom, makes no difference if something is on my mind and I need to talk it through. Me "sharing" has nothing to do with me being close with you, or even liking you.

  3. #33
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    What if it's true that Te thinking and Ti thinking differ seemingly in being coded to or free to wander away from... objects? For Te the discussion is done when the object's place in the external world of otherwise fixed objects is determined. For Ti, the discussion is never really done, ever, because there are no objects really, there are only concepts, and (one presumes) the depth and interconnectedness of concepts qua concepts is endless.

    So now to Fe and Fi...

    I assume that just as (he says hopefully) Fi is a partisan reaction to one's sense of the order of the inner system, Fe is a partisan reaction to one's sense of the order of the outer system. And for Fe, just as for Te, the feeling event is concluded when the correct place for an object in that outer world is determined (thought, in fact, not truly concluded until that object is in its correct place).

    Now... "object" and "place" for Fe... respectively, in gross terms, people and relationships. In more subtle terms... smiles, gestures, body language, goals, hopes, dreams, organisations. Etc. Human stuff.

    The affective part... when something is out of place, Fe feels bad. When something is in place, Fe feels good.


    So but really, the objects of Fe and the organisation of those objects...

    What are they?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #34
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    There are no objects. It's purely reception and reaction to human-oriented stimuli. What you see as Fe manipulating others and being "fake" is actually Ti instructing us on what we need to do in reaction to others to accomplish a specific goal. Being Ne-dominants, we can do this on the fly. That's why it ends up seeming so cold and calculated over time - because it is, entirely.

  5. #35
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    What? No. C'mon. There has to be objects. Maybe "objects" is the wrong word. The stuff about which Fe is about.

    And don't say "feelings".

    Oh wait. "Human-oriented stimuli." Hmmm...



    Say, Fe is tertiary, so it's turned to for good purpose and for ill, to revitalise auxiliary function projects or to sabotage them, and it's F so it's motivational, so presumably ENTPs would really like it if other people were... what?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #36
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Not so goddamn caught up in themselves.

  7. #37
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    And how does that jibe with being dual to INFJs, hm?


    Oh noes! ISFJs!
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #38
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And how does that jibe with being dual to INFJs, hm?


    Oh noes! ISFJs!
    IxFJs are intimately interested in others above themselves, if you catch their interest

  9. #39
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    Fe is controlled by NeTi

    make of that, what you will

  10. #40
    Member Nat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    You maybe shouldn't read so much into it. Her being engaging one moment and reclusive the next most likely has nothing to do with you or whomever she is conversing with at the moment. Most likely, she is engaging when her brain is clear of other things, and reclusive when her mind is busy processing something.

    I find it also very difficult to like or dislike a person. I had a very short memory and a very short attention span. If my brain is clear and receptive and you are in front of me and are being pleasant, you will get the impression that I like you. If I am otherwise engaged, or you are acting douchebaggy, you will get the impression that I don't. Every time I see you, I look at you with a clean slate unless some horrible transgression has occurred. In which case, wait a few weeks for your slate to be clean again. Either way, I don't spend much time or energy thinking about if I like someone in general or not. I'm mostly neutral. You simply exist.

    A lot of times people feel that they are close to me because I "confide" in them. But what they don't understand is that I just speak to whomever is in front of me. It could be you or it could be your mom, makes no difference if something is on my mind and I need to talk it through. Me "sharing" has nothing to do with me being close with you, or even liking you.

    I figured her being engaging/reclusive on and off was just part of her personality. Funnily enough she used to think I had a problem with her because I didn't talk a lot with her, which is confusing because I would think she of all people wouldn't take that personally. :P

    The part about not liking/disliking people is interesting to me though... I have very strong feelings about a people - I'd like to be more neutral!

    Do you find this the same with long term relationships e.g. friends?

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