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  1. #21
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Woo, you guys can do that?

    How come?




    (The Fi analogue in my own behaviour? Perhaps those times when I chill right down and deliberately count the other person as an obstacle rather than an individual. If I'm especially confident, it can include sneering. But that's Te/Fi on the rag and doesn't happen much because it's costly.)
    Because they pissed me off, so fuck that asshole. Honestly, that's the only rationale behind it. It's the most irrational part behind our character - any offense must be met with completely disproportionate retaliation, because, quite frankly, I don't play that shit. That's all there is to it.

    I'll put it this way - Tommy DeVito from Goodfellas was a perfect example of a sociopathic ENTP. Usually fun and gregarious, but if you crossed him, he'd make sure that you're dead.

  2. #22
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    One presumes it must exist, what with Fe being the relief function. But what does it amount to? All I think I'm immediately aware of is ENTPs don't like having their sincerity questioned.

    Or do you?
    Needs only one tad bit of change, namely: their "presumed sincerity".

    Besides that, it was perfect
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #23
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    So-o-o-o... what pisses you guys off, generally speaking?





    (Full Disclosure: this topic was prompted by wondering who was likely to be able to discuss Fe well or at least be able to promote discussion of Fe as a function. Theory says "ENTPs will!" because it's relief for you guys. Utilitarian much? Yeah well, it sorta kinda maybe worked for INTJ and Fi, so...)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #24
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    So, where to being? With arbitrary claims! Fi is emotional awareness of individual functioning. Fe is emotional awareness of group dynamics. How hard can it be to describe? A "group" is any number of persons more than one; "emotional awareness" is any partisan reaction in the individual; "dynamics" includes both static and interactive states.

    Hypothesis: ENTPs need groups of people to be harmonious by and large for thinking to actually operate, Ti being more about truth chains than concrete facts, meaning it's better for people to be pleasant while following truth who knows where because goodwill works better than ill. Ill will might send the truth search off into lying territory and we wouldn't know until the contradiction was found.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #25
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Because they pissed me off, so fuck that asshole. Honestly, that's the only rationale behind it. It's the most irrational part behind our character - any offense must be met with completely disproportionate retaliation, because, quite frankly, I don't play that shit. That's all there is to it.
    Oh god, yes. I found myself about to take a 12 year old to task once and was so utterly ashamed (amused) with myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So, where to being? With arbitrary claims! Fi is emotional awareness of individual functioning. Fe is emotional awareness of group dynamics. How hard can it be to describe? A "group" is any number of persons more than one; "emotional awareness" is any partisan reaction in the individual; "dynamics" includes both static and interactive states.
    Not sure I agree the group dynamic part. Meaning "group" vs. any person who is not myself. It could be just the one. Where Fi seems completely self absorbed, on the flip side, I am completely absorbed in the other. This stuff, this retaliation stuff, is the negative aspect. But I have been known to starve myself with a smile on my face in order to loan money to someone in a way that won't make them feel guilty. When I care about feelings at all, I am more likely to care more about how someone else is feeling than I am to care about my own feelings. My rationale is usually of the "Well, I'm strong and I can take it, but this person would break under the same circumstances, so I will sacrifice myself for him/her" variety.

    Hypothesis: ENTPs need groups of people to be harmonious by and large for thinking to actually operate, Ti being more about truth chains than concrete facts, meaning it's better for people to be pleasant while following truth who knows where because goodwill works better than ill. Ill will might send the truth search off into lying territory and we wouldn't know until the contradiction was found.
    No. Saying something is a need is not the same as saying it is better. And I don't completely understand that last sentence you wrote.

    And why is Ti not about concrete facts?

  6. #26
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Not sure I agree the group dynamic part. Meaning "group" vs. any person who is not myself. It could be just the one.
    Yup. The idea of "group" includes the ENTP as a group member. So, you plus the other(s).

    Fe isn't about group dynamics in that sense?

    And why is Ti not about concrete facts?
    Honestly? I have no idea. I have the impression Te is anchored to objects while Ti is about anything that can be talked about, but it works better if it's about unanchored truth, truth that came from other truths, which came from other truths, which came from nowhere, we just started talking about it.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #27
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Yup. The idea of "group" includes the ENTP as a group member. So, you plus the other(s).

    Fe isn't about group dynamics in that sense?
    But do you get that it can be just about the other, without the ENTP being a part of that group?

    And really, it's a relief function, not our way of life.

    Honestly? I have no idea. I have the impression Te is anchored to objects while Ti is about anything that can be talked about, but it works better if it's about unanchored truth, truth that came from other truths, which came from other truths, which came from nowhere, we just started talking about it.
    I was under the impression that on the most basic level Te is about organization and Ti is about analysis. You can organize truths and you can analyze objects.

    You may be confusing things with your impression of Ne, in which case I would ask you to remember that Ti is not the exclusive playground of Ne users.

  8. #28
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    But do you get that it can be just about the other, without the ENTP being a part of that group?
    It still needs the ENTP (or Fe user) to be affected, doesn't it? "Affected" as in have the affective part of the feeling.

    Unless I'm mighty, mighty mistaken and viewing Fe as if it being internal like Fi is somehow an important aspect.

    And really, it's a relief function, not our way of life.
    I reckon relief functions are a way of life. It seems like they govern a lot of how people do anything.

    I was under the impression that on the most basic level Te is about organization and Ti is about analysis. You can organize truths and you can analyze objects.
    Sure. But pragmatic organisation of truths sometimes loses truth and analysis of objects sometimes goes way too deep and loses the object.

    You may be confusing things with your impression of Ne, in which case I would ask you to remember that Ti is not the exclusive playground of Ne users.
    My impression of Ti is that coherence is more valuable than concreteness. The big ball of truths hangs together properly as a whole vs every sequence of inference ultimately rests on some foundation that doesn't need questioning.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #29
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Unless I'm mighty, mighty mistaken and viewing Fe as if it being internal like Fi is somehow an important aspect.
    Most likely. Extroverted feeling is not very internal. It says so right in the name.

    On a very general level everything is internal at some point, but my Fe is not usually conscious of how something will affect me, only how it will affect someone else.

    I reckon relief functions are a way of life. It seems like they govern a lot of how people do anything.
    Possibly. I'm still learning.

    Sure. But pragmatic organisation of truths sometimes loses truth and analysis of objects sometimes goes way too deep and loses the object.
    Yes. No one is as perfect as they think they are.

    My impression of Ti is that coherence is more valuable than concreteness. The big ball of truths hangs together properly as a whole vs every sequence of inference ultimately rests on some foundation that doesn't need questioning.
    Concreteness is the name of the game with Ti. It's all about precision, which is why INTPs are so fucking wordy. Inconsistencies are the one thing that will make their hair stand on end.

    I know we are using the same words but I can't help feeling like we are talking about different things. Can you please define concreteness, coherence, truth and fact as you see it? Let's be as precise as possible.

  10. #30
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Most likely. Extroverted feeling is not very internal. It says so right in the name.

    On a very general level everything is internal at some point, but my Fe is not usually conscious of how something will affect me, only how it will affect someone else.
    Hmmm... the object of the feeling is outside the person. Still, I'm very, very curious about the affective part. (And I'm not at all sure what I mean by that.)

    Concreteness is the name of the game with Ti. It's all about precision, which is why INTPs are so fucking wordy. Inconsistencies are the one thing that will make their hair stand on end.

    I know we are using the same words but I can't help feeling like we are talking about different things. Can you please define concreteness, coherence, truth and fact as you see it? Let's be as precise as possible.
    Do we have to? I know I'm going to be caught out for using circular definitions. By concreteness I think I mean no more than the subject of the thinking is recognised as a thing outside of the person. Actually, more than that--the subject of the thinking is understood to be composed of properties that can be discovered and once discovered don't need to be questioned (or if questioned, then the object ceases to the thing under discussion). Maybe Te accepts that there is a certain level of discussion beyond which discussion is pointless. For a Te discussion to work, some aspects of the discussion are logically primitive.

    Ti, by contrast, I am assuming, allows everything to be discussed. Indeed, intends that everything will be discussed or the discussion cannot be considered adequate. As such, the key measure in Ti discussion is how well whatever is said in the discussion sits with (coheres with) EVERYTHING ELSE YOU KNOW IN TOTALITY!

    I wonder if there's not a corresponding few things to say about Fe and Fi. Fe takes some level of feeling to be basic, or maybe that at some point the object of feeling is dissected only pointlessly, whereas Fi says YOU CAN'T DRAW THAT ARBITRARY LINE THERE! (And what that means, yes, you guessed it, I don't know. I'm just intuiting connections here.)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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