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  1. #11
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Wow Ne-Monster, you really have studied us. I pretty much agree with everything you said, except:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    4. Shunning-they shun your ass when you make them uncomfortable (fuck you brian). I directly confront others in an issue. They retreat and hide. I think this is the Fe circles of social interaction. You get shoved outside of all the circles.
    I guess you could call it shunning, but I would never call it retreating and hiding. More like I just don't want to be bothered and if I don't like you, you don't exist to me. I have no reason to retreat or hide... ever. I definitely confront people if the result will be worth my while. If I see no benefit in doing so, I won't.

    Also, sometimes this is done to protect the recipient. This just happened to me today, so I have some frame of reference. I was on the phone with someone who seemed a bit snarky with me, so I excused myself and hung up quickly. This is because I genuinely like this person and my first instinct is to fight snark with even more snark (I guess the one-upping thing?) I didn't want to take it there, so I left the situation in order to protect the innocent.

    5. Control-they use Fe to control others by social inclusion/exclusion. One of my faves actually would physically touch my back to bring me into a conversation, then withdrew touch when I said something he did not agree with. I watched him do this with several others throughout the night. When they need to control others Fe is the tool they use.
    Maybe this is true, but I don't do it consciously. If I am engaged, I will engage you. If I am put off, I will not engage you. But I don't do this to control. It has more to do with what I stated above. I guess I just like things to be happy and pleasant at all times. If something is a downer or draining, I tend to just avoid it.

    7. The older males seem overly submissive to authority figures. They are very unwilling to step outside of the proper chain of command. It is really odd as my wacked out Te has no such problem.
    I've never seen this in action, but I'll take your word for it. I can't imagine myself this way, though. I guess the females are different?

    8. Lying???? This one is really odd and just crossed my mind the other day. I was reading the catcher in the rye. Very often the kid would get stuck in these situations and then propose an idea, only to follow the thought with "that was a total lie, and I would never actually do that, but I dont know know why I said it" I wonder if as entps are growing into Fe sometimes it cuases them to blurt things out to soothe social discontent, to make others happy, but in reality they dont mean it or mean to follow up on it. Fe5-I would do anything to maintain my close relationships with others
    Ok, lying... No, I don't lie. But sometimes, I will omit something to humor someone and get out of a situation. Like if I know for sure that an unpleasant conversation has no end in sight and I feel like gnawing my own foot off to escape... For instance, if someone is angry at me and says "You did x, y and z" and I feel that they are totally off base, I will acknowledge something in such a way that the person may believe that I am apologizing for the entire thing, unless they take the time to listen to my actual words. Which, in my experience, many people (especially NFPs) are not capable of doing. Often "I see why you would say that, and why that would make you upset" is mistaken for an apology when really it is just an acknowledgment of your mental state.

    However, as for the Holden Caufield reference... yeah, I can see myself making empty promises to make someone feel better - but this is done very sparingly. This is something I do when I visit an elderly person and promise to visit more often, knowing full well I have no intention of doing so. But I think every person does this to some degree. And again, this is very rare - with me, at least.

    Also, I agree with Serengeti - I buy very expensive handbags, sunglasses and shoes because they are made well and will last. And I fucking HATE shopping. I want my purchase to be as timeless and well constructed as a Chanel suit. There are cheap throwaway things that I buy, but mainly when I recognize that this thing is just a fad and I won't wear again after the current season. So that's how I end up with quality items mixed with cheap shit.

  2. #12
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerengetiBetty View Post
    This is one of my PET PEEVES offline:when people make assumptions about someone's dress as an indication of who they are and how much they are trying to impress others. So by your reasoning someone who buys their things at thrift shops can't possibly care about social recognition? What's the spending cutoff amount in your theory of the need for social recognition?
    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Also, I agree with Serengeti - I buy very expensive handbags, sunglasses and shoes because they are made well and will last. And I fucking HATE shopping. I want my purchase to be as timeless and well constructed as a Chanel suit. There are cheap throwaway things that I buy, but mainly when I recognize that this thing is just a fad and I won't wear again after the current season. So that's how I end up with quality items mixed with cheap shit.
    sorry serengeti, no judgement implied, just observation. It isnt that these things are bad or good-just what I see. You are totally right concerning potential value of items and longevity. I have no Fe, thus am uncaring and unaware of what others think and I do not value quality of items. I would likely not wear pants to work if I didnt have to. I say "social recognition" but maybe a better term is "social expectations" concerning normality. Thus likely I am the outlier and the ENTPs are actually more normal with respect to this issue.

    My ESTPs surround themselves with very nice things. I describe them as "shiny" people. They can be materialistic and value social expectations-again not judgement-just how they are. The boys spend more time on thier hair than me. I make fun of them for this.

    My ENTPs seem to value intellectual recognition much, much more so-but they like to have physical/material signs of that intellectual recognition???? So they end up mixed up shiny?

    Honestly boy EXTPs are much more noticable about this. But maybe this is like an NeTi practicality thing? i dunno, your brains, not mine... let me know what you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    More like I just don't want to be bothered and if I don't like you, you don't exist to me.

    I guess I just like things to be happy and pleasant at all times. If something is a downer or draining, I tend to just avoid it.

    I've never seen this in action, but I'll take your word for it. I can't imagine myself this way, though. I guess the females are different?.
    Comment 1- Is exclusion/avoidance a more precise term? In my mind I see Te control through overt dominance. Fe controls by threat or social exclusion/isolation. Either would have led to death in a group society where cooperation and inclusion were essential to survival. So behavior would have been effectively controlled via the threat of social exclusion-ie elimination of Fe social connectivities and subseqeunt mutual reciprocal exchange of resources.

    Comment 3-yup only boys so far-men in thier 40s.

    Comment 2- I have the "elephant in the room problem". If there is a problem I will very directly confront the issue. Te makes it very hard not to directly confront, resolve, plan and thus mentally I get to control the issue-otherwise I am left drained and confused, stressed as there is no resolution and the problem cycles in my brain. It works very well with Te users.

    Maybe for an Fe user, that direct confrontation can come across as drama or emotionally unpleseant?? I dunno. My EXTPs do not directly confront. They are all very "nice" to each other. My best friend entp says the Fe totally allows her to control and calm groups of people. I know she is really stressed out when she gets very "pleasent".

    I am actually working on an Fe mask of sorts to blend more with them. It makes me feel like a stepford wife, but the Fe doms and Auxs love me when I act this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Ok, lying... No, I don't lie. But sometimes, I will omit something to humor someone and get out of a situation. Like if I know for sure that an unpleasant conversation has no end in sight and I feel like gnawing my own foot off to escape... For instance, if someone is angry at me and says "You did x, y and z" and I feel that they are totally off base, I will acknowledge something in such a way that the person may believe that I am apologizing for the entire thing, unless they take the time to listen to my actual words. Which, in my experience, many people (especially NFPs) are not capable of doing. Often "I see why you would say that, and why that would make you upset" is mistaken for an apology when really it is just an acknowledgment of your mental state.
    However, as for the Holden Caufield reference... yeah, I can see myself making empty promises to make someone feel better - but this is done very sparingly. This is something I do when I visit an elderly person and promise to visit more often, knowing full well I have no intention of doing so. But I think every person does this to some degree. And again, this is very rare - with me, at least.
    This one is totally a recent guess-I could be way way off-but there was a thread awhile back about ENTPs and lying. It seemed odd as I thought none of mine did that, but I have had two friends I have since caught saying things just to keep me happy. I tend to call them on it.

    Also the NFPs above-I think that is really what we want-affirmation and acknowledgement of our emotional state. (I just figured this out last week.
    I have been using it to calm my other enfp coworker-it is amazing how easy it is) Once acknowledged, then we can become more rational and self evaluate.

  3. #13
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    I'll go ahead and contradict my feminine counterparts - I definitely do buy a thing or two for status purposes. It might be more of a male pecking-order thing.

  4. #14
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    sorry serengeti, no judgement implied, just observation. It isnt that these things are bad or good-just what I see. You are totally right concerning potential value of items and longevity. I have no Fe, thus am uncaring and unaware of what others think and I do not value quality of items. I would likely not wear pants to work if I didnt have to. I say "social recognition" but maybe a better term is "social expectations" concerning normality. Thus likely I am the outlier and the ENTPs are actually more normal with respect to this issue.

    My ESTPs surround themselves with very nice things. I describe them as "shiny" people. They can be materialistic and value social expectations-again not judgement-just how they are. The boys spend more time on thier hair than me. I make fun of them for this.

    My ENTPs seem to value intellectual recognition much, much more so-but they like to have physical/material signs of that intellectual recognition???? So they end up mixed up shiny?

    Honestly boy EXTPs are much more noticable about this. But maybe this is like an NeTi practicality thing? i dunno, your brains, not mine... let me know what you think.
    See above comment.

    Comment 1- Is exclusion/avoidance a more precise term? In my mind I see Te control through overt dominance. Fe controls by threat or social exclusion/isolation. Either would have led to death in a group society where cooperation and inclusion were essential to survival. So behavior would have been effectively controlled via the threat of social exclusion-ie elimination of Fe social connectivities and subseqeunt mutual reciprocal exchange of resources.
    Yeah, that's pretty observant, nice work. Also explains why EXTPs and Te-dominants come to loggerheads so often.

    Comment 3-yup only boys so far-men in thier 40s.

    Comment 2- I have the "elephant in the room problem". If there is a problem I will very directly confront the issue. Te makes it very hard not to directly confront, resolve, plan and thus mentally I get to control the issue-otherwise I am left drained and confused, stressed as there is no resolution and the problem cycles in my brain. It works very well with Te users.

    Maybe for an Fe user, that direct confrontation can come across as drama or emotionally unpleseant?? I dunno. My EXTPs do not directly confront. They are all very "nice" to each other. My best friend entp says the Fe totally allows her to control and calm groups of people. I know she is really stressed out when she gets very "pleasent".
    Honestly, it's that direct confrontation is a complete pain in the ass. You know that when we're directly involved in conflict, we're not out to work out our differences, we're out to completely annihilate the person on the other side. Needless to say, this leads to some other undesirable repercussions. Much better to just exclude the person from your hurricane of rage than it is to have everyone thinking how much of an asshole you are because you just nailed every single emotional vulnerability of a person in one screaming tirade.

    I am actually working on an Fe mask of sorts to blend more with them. It makes me feel like a stepford wife, but the Fe doms and Auxs love me when I act this way.



    This one is totally a recent guess-I could be way way off-but there was a thread awhile back about ENTPs and lying. It seemed odd as I thought none of mine did that, but I have had two friends I have since caught saying things just to keep me happy. I tend to call them on it.
    Don't do that. I promise you, you won't like the results. As you're aware of, an ExTP without the Fe on is an xxFP's worst nightmare. We'll be constantly saying objectively true but horribly offensive things (like I said, ExTPs when hanging around each other don't take very long to pull out the most horribly offensive humor imaginable) without even realizing how much harm we're inflicting. Just put up with the bullshit and understand that we're doing it in your best interest.

    Also the NFPs above-I think that is really what we want-affirmation and acknowledgement of our emotional state. (I just figured this out last week.
    I have been using it to calm my other enfp coworker-it is amazing how easy it is) Once acknowledged, then we can become more rational and self evaluate.
    See, this drives us nuts, because it's horribly selfish. Sorry, but you'll admit that it's true - that we have to focus on YOUR needs before anything else can be settled is about as selfish an idea as I can think of. (See, that's when the Fe is turned off).

  5. #15
    Senior Member Fiver's Avatar
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    I just don't see the lying thing. I can't imagine naturally saying something to make other people feel better that I didn't actually mean. My wonderful SJ husband says things all the time to other people that I absolutely know are not true, like, "I'll come over next weekend," when I know he has other plans. It took me a good 10 years of correcting him in front of the other person before I realized that he was full of shit and lying for social purposes. Sometimes I have to just walk away, it makes me so uncomfortable.
    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    Fiver is correct, it is freeing to not have to impress someone, to be accepted for who you really are.

  6. #16
    Senior Member SerengetiBetty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    I would likely not wear pants to work if I didnt have to. I say "social recognition" but maybe a better term is "social expectations" concerning normality. Thus likely I am the outlier and the ENTPs are actually more normal with respect to this issue.
    same here. I've just been in quite a few impromptu things like cartwheel competitions and other crazy physically fun things that tend to rip the hell out of cheapo jeans but my $250 pair are still ticking


    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    My ENTPs seem to value intellectual recognition much, much more so-but they like to have physical/material signs of that intellectual recognition???? So they end up mixed up shiny?

    Honestly boy EXTPs are much more noticable about this. But maybe this is like an NeTi practicality thing? i dunno, your brains, not mine... let me know what you think.
    This is possible, not everyone in a personality type are the same. people off all types can be insecure and need external validation. personally i could care less if people recognize me or not as long as they are fair about it. i don't feel the need to be the center of attention of get the pat on the back,especially in a work situation because I kind of see it as part of a team effort.. as long as we're all doing our part then, there's no need to spotlight anyone. i'm ok with working in the background


    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    Maybe for an Fe user, that direct confrontation can come across as drama or emotionally unpleseant?? I dunno. My EXTPs do not directly confront. They are all very "nice" to each other. My best friend entp says the Fe totally allows her to control and calm groups of people. I know she is really stressed out when she gets very "pleasent".

    I am actually working on an Fe mask of sorts to blend more with them. It makes me feel like a stepford wife, but the Fe doms and Auxs love me when I act this way.
    maybe I'm an atypical ENTP, but life experiences have made me a confronter. My expereince is that it's more efficient to speak your peace sooner rather than later and it's definitely better than hoping the other person will telepathically get what you mean. I'm not big on making things smooth solely for the sake of making them smooth. I'd rather confront the issue and get past it than let it just sit over people's heads. I also find that confronting sooner rather than later means that I'm not immediately starting out with guns a-blazing..

    Oh yeah and I'm definitely not going to say a lie just to make someone feel better. trust me, I'll tell you that I think your ass looks fat and your new hair cut is horrible IF you ask my opinion.

  7. #17
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerengetiBetty View Post
    maybe I'm an atypical ENTP, but life experiences have made me a confronter. My expereince is that it's more efficient to speak your peace sooner rather than later and it's definitely better than hoping the other person will telepathically get what you mean. I'm not big on making things smooth solely for the sake of making them smooth. I'd rather confront the issue and get past it than let it just sit over people's heads. I also find that confronting sooner rather than later means that I'm not immediately starting out with guns a-blazing..

    Oh yeah and I'm definitely not going to say a lie just to make someone feel better. trust me, I'll tell you that I think your ass looks fat and your new hair cut is horrible IF you ask my opinion.
    (I know that you want to feel special but) Nah, that's typical entp.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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  8. #18
    Senior Member Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerengetiBetty View Post
    Oh yeah and I'm definitely not going to say a lie just to make someone feel better. trust me, I'll tell you that I think your ass looks fat and your new hair cut is horrible IF you ask my opinion.
    That's exactly what I'm talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    Fiver is correct, it is freeing to not have to impress someone, to be accepted for who you really are.

  9. #19
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Honestly, it's that direct confrontation is a complete pain in the ass. You know that when we're directly involved in conflict, we're not out to work out our differences, we're out to completely annihilate the person on the other side.
    Yes.

    See, my normal way of communicating is seen as "direct confrontation" to most others. You may have to muster that up as an ENFP, but this is my natural mode of conversing. I have been called pushy, direct and aggressive more often than I can count. But I am not deliberately so. My curiosity is insatiable so I just keep on with something until I have exhausted all angles. Needless to say, I never have a problem addressing an issue.

    However, when I am deliberately and consciously confronting someone, above and beyond my usual directness, I am out to destroy you. Which is why I often walk away. I've learned over the years that the punishment rarely fits the crime. Winning (and destroying my competition) at all costs is rarely worth the effort, or the subsequent damage control, over a topical argument.

  10. #20
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Honestly, it's that direct confrontation is a complete pain in the ass. You know that when we're directly involved in conflict, we're not out to work out our differences, we're out to completely annihilate the person on the other side. Needless to say, this leads to some other undesirable repercussions. Much better to just exclude the person from your hurricane of rage than it is to have everyone thinking how much of an asshole you are because you just nailed every single emotional vulnerability of a person in one screaming tirade.
    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    However, when I am deliberately and consciously confronting someone, above and beyond my usual directness, I am out to destroy you. Which is why I often walk away. I've learned over the years that the punishment rarely fits the crime. Winning (and destroying my competition) at all costs is rarely worth the effort, or the subsequent damage control, over a topical argument.
    Woo, you guys can do that?

    How come?




    (The Fi analogue in my own behaviour? Perhaps those times when I chill right down and deliberately count the other person as an obstacle rather than an individual. If I'm especially confident, it can include sneering. But that's Te/Fi on the rag and doesn't happen much because it's costly.)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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