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[INFJ] INFJ + ENFP = Transcendental Romance. INFJ + ESTJ = Duality. Any thoughts?

Tofu562

New member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
90
MBTI Type
ENFP
weeeeeeeeellll.... if there's any ENFP guys out there that snagged an INFJ girl, want to discuss some strategy? :)
 

Wonkavision

Retired Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
1,154
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
I was just reading an article ( http://www.ccc-apt.org/system/files/Beebe+-+Evolving+the+8-function+model+APT.pdf) and I came across this:

Von Franz [Marie-Louise von Franz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] had postulated that the greatest difficulties that occur between people are on the basis of one using a function with a particular attitude (e.g., extraversion), and the other using the same function with the opposite attitude (e.g., introversion).

This is an idea which has been bouncing around in my head for a while, and I think it goes a long way toward explaining the tension/difficulty between INFJs and ENFPs.

I mean, if I'm understanding it correctly, then INFJs and ENFPs have major difficulties with each other on two counts:Fe vs. Fi and Ni vs. Ne

Seems like a pretty explosive mix! :shock:


What do you guys think?
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I was just reading an article ( http://www.ccc-apt.org/system/files/Beebe+-+Evolving+the+8-function+model+APT.pdf) and I came across this:

This is an idea which has been bouncing around in my head for a while, and I think it goes a long way toward explaining the tension/difficulty between INFJs and ENFPs.

I mean, if I'm understanding it correctly, then INFJs and ENFPs have major difficulties with each other on two counts:Fe vs. Fi and Ni vs. Ne

Seems like a pretty explosive mix! :shock:


What do you guys think?

it just means your assumptions are usually wrong about the other person. the way they get to their conclusions is very different from your way, so you have to trust that. what you take for granted they don't. Ni and Ne are very complimentary, but they motivate different behaviors that seem contradictory to the other type at times (Ne is freedom loving and Ni wants focus). Fi and Fe and Ti and Te clash far harder. methods vs principles. the Je functions work objectives, and they need various foundational elements in order for that to work. that's why they can seem so fucking pushy. whereas Ji types are sooooo stubborn.

i think enneagram compliance is more important at determining whether enfp and infj work than an overarching MB functional theory. i like what 7w8s come up with, but i'd never be as closely involved with them as 7w6. we'd clash, we need more distance bc we both would want more control.
 

Synarch

Once Was
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
8,445
MBTI Type
ENTP
it just means your assumptions are usually wrong about the other person. the way they get to their conclusions is very different from your way, so you have to trust that. what you take for granted they don't. Ni and Ne are very complimentary, but they motivate different behaviors that seem contradictory to the other type at times (Ne is freedom loving and Ni wants focus). Fi and Fe and Ti and Te clash far harder. methods vs principles. the Je functions work objectives, and they need various foundational elements in order for that to work. that's why they can seem so fucking pushy. whereas Ji types are sooooo stubborn.

i think enneagram compliance is more important at determining whether enfp and infj work than an overarching MB functional theory. i like what 7w8s come up with, but i'd never be as closely involved with them as 7w6. we'd clash, we need more distance bc we both would want more control.

You make a good point here. I am not an ENFP (though Edgar would disagree), but this has been my experience with INFJ's at times. My assumptions about them are usually way off. It doesn't seem to cause too many problems because the communication is pretty good, but it has caused me to slow down a bit more and really work at getting to know this other person who is so different from me and yet so fascinating.

I do actually like that they are difficult to read as people who are too easy to read I find boring. I think ENTP's are natural at reading people in a superficial sense and since INFJ's are so not superficial they can really challenge us.

What is your enneagram? I am 7w6.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
That's an interesting idea, Wonka! I find that many ENFPs here have been very friendly to me. However, I don't think either of us naturally understands where the other is coming from. I've always wondered why I feel it with them more than the other NFs. That might explain it!
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
i am a 5w4 sp/sx infj.

and to somewhat re-frame what i said previously, i think it's really easy to catch their perceptions and pick up what they see. but the why is what is difficult.

i find entp-infj to be the easiest of all in this regard, mainly bc the judgment functions work similarly. but the overall dynamics still produce different enneagram types (psychological weaknesses/defenses), perceptual emphases, etc.

whereas enfp-infj is easier in some ways bc the behavior patterns and skill-sets achieve more similar results (ie we're good at similar things, albeit from an inverted orientation). and we're apt to trust feeling more naturally than Thinking, at least at first, and share a more similar vision with each other as a result.

i consistently have the best results with 7w6 of all enneagram types. the tone/tenor of communication balances my needs most effectively.

ep types can still worry me as an introvert. when off-center their social skills often go into overdrive, whereas when i get off-center i feel incapable of social activity (and thus trapped in the resonances of the previous experience). this creates anxiety for me (say, in a romantic relationship), and fucks with my ability to be a consistent person (the 5 oversensitivity, distancing, over-thinking/rationalization, etc).

enfp 7w6 is the best at being context-sensitive in a way that provides enough gentleness of handling for a worried/anxious/neurotic infj (along with the occasional boost of good feeling, inspiration, warmth, etc). but entp 7w6 seems the best at actual problem-solving, creating more logical coherency and awareness in the infj, showing them their mistakes w/o getting overly angry or feeling the w8 hostility, etc. plus entp humor is the highest form of humor (with intjs next).

as i'm sure you know, when in various emotional states, infjs can read ANYthing into a situation. our moods drastically filter what we see, and when in negative states we immediately scan any communication or message or symbolic act (which everything is, read kenneth burke), and look for potential threats, violations, aggressions, etc. this is e4 and e5 related behavior. and why we can become so defensive, when we read every point of comparison/statement as drawing attention to a potential defect and weakness we have not been able to conquer and e5 worrying about the worst possible thoughts we can generate and becoming highly counterphobic at times diving into pure darkness just to prove we can handle it, that it won't destroy us, and that we will be able to master it (since we can NOT forget it).
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
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Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
That's an interesting idea, Wonka! I find that many ENFPs here have been very friendly to me. However, I don't think either of us naturally understands where the other is coming from. I've always wondered why I feel it with them more than the other NFs. That might explain it!

i think i remember you stating you are an e2? do you feel confidently about that? do you know your wing?

you don't seem to get defensive at all like many 4s, but you seem to have a very keen vision on how you work. so i have trouble recognizing your ennea type.
 

qwertsquirt

New member
Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
17
MBTI Type
INFJ
I dated an ISTJ once. We were so mean to each other, still we tried to love despite our views and stuff and that was amazing, that we still carried on even though our personalities conflicted.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
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May 31, 2009
Messages
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INFJ
I've taken two tests and came out as a 2w1 so/sx/sp and a 2 with balanced wings and sp as primary variant. I really don't know.
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I've taken two tests and came out as a 2w1 so/sx/sp and a 2 with balanced wings and sp as primary variant. I really don't know.

my impression of 1 is of judginess and perfectionism and having great difficulty accepting the world as it is, always wantin to change it. i find 1w2 to have some of the most intense energy of any enneagram type. 2 i generally find to be far less self-aware and self-analytical, because it is so focused on others. 9w1s have a similar orientation, yet they are more aware of the relationship between themselves and others as they try to find a place in which they can assert themselves and at times must get in touch with their own desires. (i feel like this makes them more observant of relationships, whereas 2s would just roll up their sleeves and try to BE helpful. this is constrasted to 9s project of understanding/compassion as a form of love and healing vs the 2s immediate ACTION and work). both types under stress feel totally unappreciated and can get very passive aggressive, but 2s i think are a bit more hysterical. 2s will demand more, all of a sudden, whereas 9s will start to aggressively TAKE< which is shockingly different than their normal attitudes (esp 9w1). if you learn more or are interested, i would love to hear about it. you seem obviously different from me and it gives you a different vantage point to create insights (which i have constantly found very interesting to read!).

Yeah you are

i see too much precision for an enfp, definitely more entp. i get way more Ti Fe than Fi Te. doesn't seem like a long-range schemer and emotional harmonizer so much as an in-the-moment game-player and analytical marketer. an unconscious sense of emotional anticipation rather than a conscious empathy. synarchs sentence construction is always so fucking precise, i just see more focus and less hazy holism. 7w6 makes people nice. F types rarely know where they're going when they speak, they lack direction comparatively with entp and intj types (which is why i always have to go to the writing center and have entps and intjs teach me how to write papers).
 

Synarch

Once Was
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
8,445
MBTI Type
ENTP
i see too much precision for an enfp, definitely more entp. i get way more Ti Fe than Fi Te. doesn't seem like a long-range schemer and emotional harmonizer so much as an in-the-moment game-player and analytical marketer. an unconscious sense of emotional anticipation rather than a conscious empathy. synarchs sentence construction is always so fucking precise, i just see more focus and less hazy holism. 7w6 makes people nice. F types rarely know where they're going when they speak, they lack direction comparatively with entp and intj types (which is why i always have to go to the writing center and have entps and intjs teach me how to write papers).

I like reading your shit. Thank you.

1. Explain how being 7w6 makes people nice.
2. Interesting point about the writing. I have been told I am a good editor because I can be ruthless about what to cut. When I write I think about what I am trying to push forward. What does not serve this "pushing forward" is carved out.

I have become more concise over time because I learned that stating something clearly is difficult. To be able to communicate, you have to crystallize the idea inside yourself. Holding the crystallized idea as you give birth to it in words requires focus.

Even when I write here, I write what I want to say then I go back and cut and reword to make it more metaphorical, concise, and neat.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
my impression of 1 is of judginess and perfectionism and having great difficulty accepting the world as it is, always wantin to change it. i find 1w2 to have some of the most intense energy of any enneagram type. 2 i generally find to be far less self-aware and self-analytical, because it is so focused on others. 9w1s have a similar orientation, yet they are more aware of the relationship between themselves and others as they try to find a place in which they can assert themselves and at times must get in touch with their own desires. (i feel like this makes them more observant of relationships, whereas 2s would just roll up their sleeves and try to BE helpful. this is constrasted to 9s project of understanding/compassion as a form of love and healing vs the 2s immediate ACTION and work). both types under stress feel totally unappreciated and can get very passive aggressive, but 2s i think are a bit more hysterical. 2s will demand more, all of a sudden, whereas 9s will start to aggressively TAKE< which is shockingly different than their normal attitudes (esp 9w1). if you learn more or are interested, i would love to hear about it. you seem obviously different from me and it gives you a different vantage point to create insights (which i have constantly found very interesting to read!).
.

Thanks State! Any insights you have would be interesting. I know that under stress I sometimes feel unappreciated, but the aggressively taking part sounds foreign to me. I get much blunter or emotional than I would be normally. I have been surprised how much variation there seems to be amongst INFJs. I feel quite sure that I am one, identify with parts of many INFJ posts, but also sometimes feel like I'm coming from a different vantage point sometimes. Do you think you could be one enneagram type and yet have it look different than someone else due to environmental factors?
 

Little Linguist

Striving for balance
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
6,880
MBTI Type
xNFP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I can see how there could be something wonderful between INFJ <---> ENFP or INFJ <---> ENTP. Yeah, I could see that.

INTP <---> ENFP works really well, too, ironically...especially with decent p/j balance.
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
I would like to get as many inputs as possible from you guys.

Socionics states that duality is the most rewarding relationship because it satisfies both partners' needs for completeness. Stages in this relationship also vary from being shaky to unbreakable (ONLY if there are mutual attractions and both partners have the same goals in life). I've met some ESTJs throughout my life, but they just don't seem to notice my presence (the introvert dual is supposed to fade in the background).

Regarding the ENFP: I LOVE ENFPs:wubbie:. I adore ENFPs:wubbie:. It's been my dream to end up with one, be it friendship or family life:yes:. I wish there could be more. But the 2 ENFPs that I met seemed very....distant. I even showed them my sincere intention to be friends. But oh well, maybe other ENFPs can explain about this, not just for romantic relationships but friendships as well:hug:.
I can still see how loving ENFPs are. They think far ahead and use feelings when making decisions, which can be seen as irrational. However, those are what make them dedicated to their relationships.

Your comments are appreciated. Thanks! :hug::)
Awww,:hug:.
I don't know any INFJ men, so I can't speak about romantic chemistry, but my MIL is an INFJ. We almost always get along, but we annoy the hell out of each other sometimes.;) I "get" her, and I'm sure she "gets" me too, but it's funny between us. She has a tendency to be extremely negative sometimes and I can feel that negativity all too well. As a result, I kinda dip in and out of close emotional interactions with her.

As for ENFPs in relationships, I agree that we shy away from people the closer we get to them. Well, I do. If I really like someone, that's when I start to fade a little bit. If I can tell another person likes me, oh jeez, then I really back off. In that way, we don't exactly communicate what we feel in the beginning of a relationship, especially if our feelings are potentially serious. So yea, it's not necessarily a bad sign if an ENFP distances themselves from you a bit. You may have to spell it all out for them so that they trust your intentions.

Once I'm in a relationship, including a friendship, I'm in it to win it. I try to give my all with the expectation that it's forever. I don't half ass relationships of any kind because I take such a long time to get into them in the first place. Once I let someone in, it takes me a long time to turn off to them, which occurs when I realize that my needs are not a priority and that I am not recognized as an individual.

From relationship satisfaction surveys that I've read, statistically, NFs are happiest when they are with other NFs.:wubbie:
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I like reading your shit. Thank you.

1. Explain how being 7w6 makes people nice.
2. Interesting point about the writing. I have been told I am a good editor because I can be ruthless about what to cut. When I write I think about what I am trying to push forward. What does not serve this "pushing forward" is carved out.

I have become more concise over time because I learned that stating something clearly is difficult. To be able to communicate, you have to crystallize the idea inside yourself. Holding the crystallized idea as you give birth to it in words requires focus.

Even when I write here, I write what I want to say then I go back and cut and reword to make it more metaphorical, concise, and neat.

the latter part is just what dominant intuitives do. the Te-Fi types go for communicative action. the Ti-Fe types go for conceptual clarity.

your writing is different than mine bc i have to locate myself somewhere and then experiment my way out of the trap. i have to use a lot of brush strokes before anything comes into focus. i see nothing, yet if given all the information of the world, i can see into it and understand it as a singularity. but i'm always kind of randomly walking along its branches and pathways. which is different, bc the analytical tools to logically and linearly break down specific relationships occur in this context more than in a starting from scratch and developing a coherent simulation out of nothing (Ne expanding a germinal seed and exploring the iterations).
 
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