[ENFJ] ENFJ and long term relationships.

[Cypocalypse]

I don't want to bring it into something like that. I actually intended the thread to be lighter in context.

Simple scenario. Charming ENFJ girl has to choose sides between, let's say, two guys that go gaga over her.

It's good if the girl would somehow act as an intermediary, but sometimes, an immature ENFJ would just act friendly to both sides, with little concern (or doing hardly much) about the tension that the two sides are having, creating the impression of an egotistical ENFJ side.

"Hey, you guys can go crazy over me, but don't involve me in whatever tussles you're having."

That's the kind of message the girl is sending.

Which is sad, because ENFJs can be very very good people (very far from the stereotypical ESFJ party girl), but allegiance indecisiveness can make them lose a bit of a respect that they should be getting.

___________

Worse, this a problem that ENFJs barely tell anyone (they hardly tell anything about themselves). They publicly show that SF-like smile, only to be weeping in moments of solitude (e.g., bedtime, etc).

 

[proteanmix]

I don't want to bring it into something like that. I actually intended the thread to be lighter in context.

Simple scenario. Charming ENFJ girl has to choose sides between, let's say, two guys that go gaga over her.

It's good if the girl would somehow act as an intermediary, but sometimes, an immature ENFJ would just act friendly to both sides, with little concern (or doing hardly much) about the tension that the two sides are having, creating the impression of an egotistical ENFJ side.

"Hey, you guys can go crazy over me, but don't involve me in whatever tussles you're having."

That's the kind of message the girl is sending.

How is that immature? Intermediary in what way? These people are in control of their own feelings and aside from purposely leading these guys on (which I wouldn't say an outsider could tell...being neutrally "friendly" could just as easily be interpreted as flirting) why should this woman be asked to run interference? Why should she not be friendly to these guys? Basically, what I'm hearing you say is "These guys like her, but she doesn't seem to like any of them back and that's not fair to them. She should give them some reason to not like her, like acting like a bitch to them so their feelings will go away." Am I interpreting you correctly?

And hey, I'm not going to lie, I'd be totally egotripping if I had three guys clamoring for my affections at once. That's some good market competition going on there and I'd be able to pick the best! Decisions like that call for at least two rounds of intensive retail therapy.

My number one pet peeve on this forum is the frequency with which people come here complaining about the relationships in their life call the "offending" party IMMATURE and INSECURE. When people call others these things they imply, to me, that they have maturity and they are secure at least in relation to this poor immature and insecure person. If you have such a great vantage point, why are you asking internet strangers, who you can automatically get to sympathize and commiserate with your version of events why some person that you know better than we ever will know, why they are acting as they are? Yes, I am very skeptical of threads like this and the events people so often describe.

The very best thing you can do to get a straight answer is ask this person yourself. But I know most people will not be that direct. People say they want a person who is direct but they are rarely willing to reciprocate that directness and are often offending when they are directly confronted about a situation. Tell this woman exactly what you've said in this thread and ask her why she's doing this. Ask her why she won't choose between these guys. From my understanding, she's not in a relationship with any of these men.

LOL, I'm just picturing these three guys going up to this girl and demanding that she pick one. Make sure to tell these guys to bring pie charts and white papers to help her make her decision.

 

[Cypocalypse]

How is that immature? Intermediary in what way? These people are in control of their own feelings and aside from purposely leading these guys on (which I wouldn't say an outsider could tell...being neutrally "friendly" could just as easily be interpreted as flirting) why should this woman be asked to run interference? Why should she not be friendly to these guys? Basically, what I'm hearing you say is "These guys like her, but she doesn't seem to like any of them back and that's not fair to them. She should give them some reason to not like her, like acting like a bitch to them so their feelings will go away." Am I interpreting you correctly?

One part of the equation that is overlooked is that....

The guys hate each other.

Wouldn't be insensitive if the girl does nothing when she's the center of the conflict?

And nope, there's no direct claim whatsoever that the person narrating the story is comparatively way more mature. No one claims to that.

 

[proteanmix]

One part of the equation that is overlooked is that....

The guys hate each other.

Wouldn't be insensitive if the girl does nothing when she's the center of the conflict?

Their conflict is not her fault. Are you to blame because Apple and Microsoft hate each other?

 

[Drezoryx]

^ nopes. the girl is free to do whatever she wants to. the guys can kiss ass.

 

[Cypocalypse]

Their conflict is not her fault. Are you to blame because Apple and Microsoft hate each other?

Not her fault, but she's involved. And her decision is what would settle everything, but she hesitates.

 

[proteanmix]

Not her fault, but she's involved. And her decision is what would settle everything, but she hesitates.

But you're not seeing it's not her responsibility. "I blame you for making me and these other guys like you. Fix it." If you want to talk about putting someone in an awkward position and relieving tension, think about how much tension you're (general you, not you) are putting on her. It's her prerogative when and if she chooses any of them and if she decides to turn a cold shoulder towards those she doesn't choose. If she has to choose between equally good (or bad) options, the decision process will take longer or she may not make a decision at all. How do you say that from her perspective, one guy is better for her than another?

And it's looks very chumpish that these are guys are sitting around waiting for her to pick one of them. Why doesn't one of them decide, hey I'm over this and remove themselves from the equation making it easier for her to choose between the remaining ones. If she loses out on all of them that will be on her.

 

[Domino]

The guys hate each other.

That's a given. *morbid laugh*

Agreed, Slumdog.

 

[MmmCrazy]

OP, you might be my twin...

I've honestly never had an issue with being fickle about choosing guys... until now.

I just really appreciate guy A, B, and C for who they are and if I have to choose one, I want to keep the rest as friends. Bahhh. It's almost better to ignore all of them, but then I'd be very lonely.

 

[Domino]

OP, you might be my twin...

I've honestly never had an issue with being fickle about choosing guys... until now.

I just really appreciate guy A, B, and C for who they are and if I have to choose one, I want to keep the rest as friends. Bahhh. It's almost better to ignore all of them, but then I'd be very lonely.

Which one is devilish, smells pleasantly of tobacco and wears a top hat? Go for that one.

 

[EcK]

Which one is devilish, smells pleasantly of tobacco and wears a top hat? Go for that one.

hey, stop talking about me behind my back!

 

[Domino]

hey, stop talking about me behind my back!

I'd talk about you to your adorable bear face, but you've neglected me and Jade terribly! We've been angrily playing video games and slamming cabinets.

 

[EcK]

I'd talk about you to your adorable bear face, but you've neglected me and Jade terribly! We've been angrily playing video games and slamming cabinets.

My diploma of twin care taker stipulates that I cannot practice without previously getting a naked oil massage from my clients

*sticks tongue out*

 

[Domino]

My diploma of twin care taker stipulates that I cannot practice without previously getting a naked oil massage from my clients

*sticks tongue out*

You are a sick fiend.

 

[EcK]

You are a sick fiend.

I love me too.
And hey, I could lose my licence if I stopstart slacking off on the details.

 

[Cypocalypse]

Some added notes about the indecision thingie...

An ENFJ girl that I know has this social life demographics. This is a rough estimate on my part, so don't consider this a generalization.

For every 12 friends that she has, the distribution is something like.

7 males
5 females

Out of these 5 females, maybe around 2 don't really like her--stereotypical ESFJ and ESFP girls who are getting jealous of an ENFJ's charisma. For some obscure reason, the ENFJ girl still acts needlessly civil (friendly, even) to the two despite them not really liking her for real. The ENFJ's intuition knows this all too well.

The 7 males is an interesting bunch. Notice that there are more male friends than females. Well, if you're an ENFJ girl making those ESFX's jealous, you'll get a bigger ratio of male friends.

Out of these 7 males, 80% or more have a crush on the ENFJ girl, and she would make sure that she's friendly enough to make sure that these guys let go of their inhibitions.

This is what sort of defines the mystic ENFJ fan club - the pool of flirting friends.

I'd be a hypocrite if I say that I'm not flirting with an ENFJ (ENTP and ENFJs are verrrrry complementary in terms of character growth).

________________

Here's where the trouble starts.

Out of those 7 guys, most of them know each other. Most of them flirt with the ENFJ. If they're mature, the guys could even get friendly with each other, assuming that most of them will take the flirtation at face value.

Let's say out of those 7, 5 are the healthy bunch that can handle the flirtation well. Either they're already in a relationship or they just take the flirtation at face value. Or both.

The other two are the territorial asshole bunch--jealous insecure possessive guys who will make sure they'll do everything so that the other guys will not try to get her attention.

Sometimes, the ENFJ girl gets in a relationship with either of the two. Break-up inevitably happens. And for some obscure reason, even if she logically (ENFJs are among the most logical feelers that I know) knows that any form of friendship with the lousy ex is a dead end, she still wants to be friendly with him, even attempting at some point to make him reconcile with the other guys.

_________________

The bottom line --

12 friends, 4 should be weeded out, but an ENFJ can't do it. NFPs and NTPs are better at this because they value closer ties and are more conscious about the social dynamics of the friends they keep (at least when interacting with each other).

This is going by the assumption, of course, that the 12 people somehow know each other.

The 8 are the only people worth keeping.

Older NFJs I know are more gutsy in this weed-out process. The younger one that I know just...couldn't do it. The sad part is, the rotten 4 can get into heavy conflict with any of the healthy 8.

______________

ENFJs are very smart, logical, and I'd even say has a good understanding of cynicism that they can apply into good use. More often than not though, wishful thinking overrides everything.

 

[MmmCrazy]

Some added notes about the indecision thingie...

An ENFJ girl that I know has this social life demographics. This is a rough estimate on my part, so don't consider this a generalization.

For every 12 friends that she has, the distribution is something like.

7 males
5 females

Out of these 5 females, maybe around 2 don't really like her--stereotypical ESFJ and ESFP girls who are getting jealous of an ENFJ's charisma. For some obscure reason, the ENFJ girl still acts needlessly civil (friendly, even) to the two despite them not really liking her for real. The ENFJ's intuition knows this all too well.

The 7 males is an interesting bunch. Notice that there are more male friends than females. Well, if you're an ENFJ girl making those ESFX's jealous, you'll get a bigger ratio of male friends.

Out of these 7 males, 80% or more have a crush on the ENFJ girl, and she would make sure that she's friendly enough to make sure that these guys let go of their inhibitions.

This is what sort of defines the mystic ENFJ fan club - the pool of flirting friends.

I'd be a hypocrite if I say that I'm not flirting with an ENFJ (ENTP and ENFJs are verrrrry complementary in terms of character growth).

________________

Here's where the trouble starts.

Out of those 7 guys, most of them know each other. Most of them flirt with the ENFJ. If they're mature, the guys could even get friendly with each other, assuming that most of them will take the flirtation at face value.

Let's say out of those 7, 5 are the healthy bunch that can handle the flirtation well. Either they're already in a relationship or they just take the flirtation at face value. Or both.

The other two are the territorial asshole bunch--jealous insecure possessive guys who will make sure they'll do everything so that the other guys will not try to get her attention.

Sometimes, the ENFJ girl gets in a relationship with either of the two. Break-up inevitably happens. And for some obscure reason, even if she logically (ENFJs are among the most logical feelers that I know) knows that any form of friendship with the lousy ex is a dead end, she still wants to be friendly with him, even attempting at some point to make him reconcile with the other guys.

_________________

The bottom line --

12 friends, 4 should be weeded out, but an ENFJ can't do it. NFPs and NTPs are better at this because they value closer ties and are more conscious about the social dynamics of the friends they keep (at least when interacting with each other).

This is going by the assumption, of course, that the 12 people somehow know each other.

The 8 are the only people worth keeping.

Older NFJs I know are more gutsy in this weed-out process. The younger one that I know just...couldn't do it. The sad part is, the rotten 4 can get into heavy conflict with any of the healthy 8.

______________

ENFJs are very smart, logical, and I'd even say has a good understanding of cynicism that they can apply into good use. More often than not though, wishful thinking overrides everything.

AH, you're talking about someone who isn't you. (/wow, way to read the thread, haha/)

Being in a very similar situation to the ENFJ girl in question, I can tell you it's just hard for me to "weed people out". I mean, think about it. That sounds awful. I've been ostracized before and I hate it! Why would I purposely go out and do that to someone? And if these girls are so jealous of me, then why hang out with me? I don't hang out with girls I'm jealous of, that's just stupid and spiteful. They should "weed themselves out".

I'm friendly with guys who have a crush on me (that aren't just total creepers) because I've also been the girl who has a crush on the guy and been totally scored by him. I felt so hated and I don't want to do that to anyone. I want them to feel appreciated because I probably do appreciate their personalities but I don't want to have a romantic relationship with them, usually for a very important but simple reason. I guess I consider myself capable of riding this line between friendship and leading him on, which I may or may not be actually capable of doing.

I love making friends with my ex's. I'm sorry, but I do. It sucks getting so close to a person, finding out who they really are, sharing so much of yourself with them and then trying to forget they ever existed, especially if they still hang around you a lot for whatever reason. It's like having someone close to you die, but you see their ghost every day. Just way too painful.

I don't like to think of people as being "kept" or "turned loose". People are way more fluid than that...

 

[Domino]

I love making friends with my ex's. I'm sorry, but I do. It sucks getting so close to a person, finding out who they really are, sharing so much of yourself with them and then trying to forget they ever existed, especially if they still hang around you a lot for whatever reason. It's like having someone close to you die, but you see their ghost every day. Just way too painful.

Well-said. If he made such a deep impact on me, he's never NOT a part of me. My IsTP was the first guy I truly *loved*. Our reflection of each other was frightening. He treated me like a woman, not a scared angry little girl. He was a drug addict, so we know where this ended. But I still think about him frequently and hope he's well and happy. I'm the same way about my ENTP ex. I think about him all the time. He was like the ISTP in the sense that I, the island fortress, could easily imagine being with him forever, and I wasn't afraid of it. I was afraid of how easy it was, but not of him.

I want to say though that if I'm with YOU, I'm with you, not these other people, no matter how much they meant to me. I'm here with you where we're at, and am not wishing for what I had. The trouble with me is that I have yet to meet anyone that I wanted to be with like I did with those two guys, so I'm still sort of floating in isolation.

When you finally feel inherently and naturally understood, it ruins everything else until it occurs again...

I don't like to think of people as being "kept" or "turned loose". People are way more fluid than that...

Wow. Very well-said. Fully agree.

 

[MmmCrazy]

My IsTP was the first guy I truly *loved*.

Haha, it's those James Dean types that get to us. Darn ISTPs!

I want to say though that if I'm with YOU, I'm with you, not these other people, no matter how much they meant to me. I'm here with you where we're at, and am not wishing for what I had. The trouble with me is that I have yet to meet anyone that I wanted to be with like I did with those two guys, so I'm still sort of floating in isolation.

It's like that Beatles song, "In my Life". (WOW. Sorry, I never quote The Beatles, haha.) You remember all the people you used to love and hold them in a certain respect in your heart, but you love the one you're with the most.

I hate that floating in isolation feeling! I know exactly what you're talking about. It makes for a pretty good driving force, though.

 

[OrangeAppled]

AH, you're talking about someone who isn't you. (/wow, way to read the thread, haha/)

Being in a very similar situation to the ENFJ girl in question, I can tell you it's just hard for me to "weed people out". I mean, think about it. That sounds awful. I've been ostracized before and I hate it! Why would I purposely go out and do that to someone? And if these girls are so jealous of me, then why hang out with me? I don't hang out with girls I'm jealous of, that's just stupid and spiteful. They should "weed themselves out".

I'm friendly with guys who have a crush on me (that aren't just total creepers) because I've also been the girl who has a crush on the guy and been totally scored by him. I felt so hated and I don't want to do that to anyone. I want them to feel appreciated because I probably do appreciate their personalities but I don't want to have a romantic relationship with them, usually for a very important but simple reason. I guess I consider myself capable of riding this line between friendship and leading him on, which I may or may not be actually capable of doing.

I love making friends with my ex's. I'm sorry, but I do. It sucks getting so close to a person, finding out who they really are, sharing so much of yourself with them and then trying to forget they ever existed, especially if they still hang around you a lot for whatever reason. It's like having someone close to you die, but you see their ghost every day. Just way too painful.

I don't like to think of people as being "kept" or "turned loose". People are way more fluid than that...

What if this is sabotaging your ability to form new, close relationships? Particularly a new, committed, romantic relationship?
What would you choose then? At what point will the ENFJ choose their own happiness over taking care of everyone else?