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  1. #31
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Does that mean you wanna hit it with me, foxy?
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
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    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  2. #32
    Senior Member Neutralpov's Avatar
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    Talking hiiiiiigh fiiivvve

    Well said Proteanmix.

    We are good at connecting.

    I guess I forgot other people aren't always that way. And the serious depth people scare me sometimes. Intense depth is hard so you better be worth it (and hint: few, few are).


    Sincerely,
    H
    Extroverted (E) 67.74% Introverted (I) 32.26%
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    so/sx/sp

  3. #33
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OrangeAppled, could you explain what you meant when you said that?
    I meant that these specific ENFJs I know will have a lot of casual friendships, which is fine if that's all they want. BUT, they complain that they cannot find a girl to date, and they imply that the issue is because no one likes them romantically. Whereas, from the outside, I see several female friends around them that would probably respond to them if they made the effort to focus on one, but instead they continue to spread themselves thin. I also see them turn off girls they are dating by being too attentive to other women.

    So they end up with what seems like a fanclub, but not the real relationship they claim they want. It's like complaining there is nothing to eat when there's food right in front of you, and I suppose maybe it boils down to pickiness or feeling incapable of reaching out to grab it. These particular ENFJs get stuck in brooding mode a lot, and I think confidence is an issue for them at times. They seem confident 99% of the time, except when it really counts.

    Now, in fairness, I know several ENFJs who are not like that, but I know enough to see a trend with them. I've mainly seen it in male ENFJs who have some self-esteem issues lurking beneath the surface.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #34
    Senior Member Neutralpov's Avatar
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    Yeah the last posting reminded me of a page on Keirsey.com section with an example of an ENFJ and their dating life...Kinda confirmed it actually. Yikes maybe I should read the post again.

    Here is the link: Keirsey's PersonalityZone - Personality and Your Relationships or the copied ENFJ section below.

    "Bethany is an Idealist Teacher (ENFJ). She was fairly popular in high school and had her pick of young men. Later, she continued to find it easy to find dates. Her real problem was that she just couldn't find what she was looking for. She joked that she was like Goldilocks. Bethany finally realized that she was holding onto an ideal that no man could match. She began dating an old friend and discovered that a relationship doesn't have to be perfect to be satisfying and fulfilling."

    Out.
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    Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
    so/sx/sp

  5. #35
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I meant that these specific ENFJs I know will have a lot of casual friendships, which is fine if that's all they want.
    I have no problem admitting that I prefer to cast my net wide. I'm much more extensive than intensive and each category caries its pros and cons. Wider connotes less depth, which I do have to agree; I'm not getting deep into it with dozens of people, but it's not like I don't have people that I am more intensive with. I don't have the goal of deeply touching nearly every person I come into contact with, but I do have the goal of making that connection. So I see how to others who prefer to have a smaller social circle with more intensive relationships that the way an I move seems fickle.

    So while I may have a large social circle, I don't think any one friend gets overloaded and overwhelmed with me, but it does create the perception of "out of sight, out of mind" which I admit to being true to a certain extent, but rarely is anyone forgotten for a newer plaything. TBH, I kinda schedule weekends for different friends so no one is really neglected, which is why this ENFJ fickle fackle thing is surprising to me. The scheduling of people isn't very spontaneous but that's my method for making sure no one feels ignored or like they are being passed over. If I didn't want to deal with you, I wouldn't even bother trying to make time for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    BUT, they complain that they cannot find a girl to date, and they imply that the issue is because no one likes them romantically. Whereas, from the outside, I see several female friends around them that would probably respond to them if they made the effort to focus on one, but instead they continue to spread themselves thin. I also see them turn off girls they are dating by being too attentive to other women.

    So they end up with what seems like a fanclub, but not the real relationship they claim they want.
    It sounds like to me you're looking at it from the POV that they've got this harem of women to choose from, pick one! But what if they don't want the options available to them? It seems like they don't have any problem connecting with these women, but none of them have what they're looking for. I can't say if they're being overly picky (what does that means in terms of a romantic relationship...are you supposed to take what you can get?) or stringing women hopelessly along. If these women have gotten together enough to notice this tendency then why are they hanging around or not making their own moves? Either they're also content as they are, or they have their own insecurities about taking it to another level.

    Could you not also say that none of these women have asserted themselves enough to distinguish themselves from the others? They're waiting for these ENFJ guys to make the first move. My baseline belief is if someone flirts with me, it's nothing more than flirting. I do not assume they like me romantically. And if these are pretty flirty guys to begin with, then they may think when women flirt with them it's nothing serious behind it. It almost looks kind of pitiful to me, having all these girls around content to be in some guys harem or being chosen as the Lucky One.

    It's like complaining there is nothing to eat when there's food right in front of you, and I suppose maybe it boils down to pickiness or feeling incapable of reaching out to grab it. These particular ENFJs get stuck in brooding mode a lot, and I think confidence is an issue for them at times. They seem confident 99% of the time, except when it really counts.
    I don't know anyone who is fully confident or doesn't have some sort of doubt when it comes to their romantic relationships. 99% sounds pretty good to me. People tend to get nervous and have all sorts of anxieties and fears when their heart is involved So, no offense, but I don't really view this as some particular ENFJ insight. I don't mean to sound harsh so please don't take it that way. This is the stuff most romcoms (that sounds so deliciously sinister!) and charmingly disarming independent films are made of, which to me implies it's prevalent enough for most people to identify with it.

    Now, in fairness, I know several ENFJs who are not like that, but I know enough to see a trend with them. I've mainly seen it in male ENFJs who have some self-esteem issues lurking beneath the surface.
    The ever-present SELF-ESTEEM and INSECURITY bomb! Where is Mr. Munch when I need him?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  6. #36
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    It sounds like to me you're looking at it from the POV that they've got this harem of women to choose from, pick one! But what if they don't want the options available to them? It seems like they don't have any problem connecting with these women, but none of them have what they're looking for. I can't say if they're being overly picky (what does that means in terms of a romantic relationship...are you supposed to take what you can get?) or stringing women hopelessly along. If these women have gotten together enough to notice this tendency then why are they hanging around or not making their own moves? Either they're also content as they are, or they have their own insecurities about taking it to another level.

    Could you not also say that none of these women have asserted themselves enough to distinguish themselves from the others? They're waiting for these ENFJ guys to make the first move. My baseline belief is if someone flirts with me, it's nothing more than flirting. I do not assume they like me romantically. And if these are pretty flirty guys to begin with, then they may think when women flirt with them it's nothing serious behind it. It almost looks kind of pitiful to me, having all these girls around content to be in some guys harem or being chosen as the Lucky One.
    I agree I wouldn't want to be a part of any kind of harem (and I have a policy of never competing for a guy - I will always step aside), but this isn't about me. I also have my ideas on flirting just as a past time and why it's mostly harmful, but that's a different discussion also.

    I cannot say what these women have or have not done, or how they feel. I can only observe and go by what my ENFJ friends tell me. It doesn't seem these girls put themselves on hold and are secretly hoping, but I don't really know.

    The women may not have any reason to think there could be more than a friendship because the ENFJ is not focusing on any one of them. If he's just sending flirty friend signals, they probably don't take him seriously. Like it or not, women usually want the man to initiate. The fact that they do seem to have "fan clubs" may be a turn off for these women, and actually it has been, as I mentioned above.

    I think HeatherC's post described it much more succinctly. I don't think it all boils down to idealism in these particular guys though, but it's probably a part of it. It seems they doubt their own worth to broach the possibility with single women they seem to admire on every level (personality, appearance, etc). I mean, if it was an issue of not liking the options before you, then I totally get that, but that's not the complaints I am hearing. IDK, maybe they would come back at me with a list of supposed flaws in these women if I were to ask about them. Maybe I should ask, "What about so and so?" and see why they've ruled her out.

    Interestingly, one ENFJ I know ended up marrying her best guy friend, in a very similar manner to what that Keirsey site says. She decided to see if they could be more than friends even though he wasn't her ideal in some ways (particularly looks), and now they are happily married. She just had to open her eyes to what was right in front of her. I'm sure all idealists need to do this at some points in their life.


    I don't know anyone who is fully confident or doesn't have some sort of doubt when it comes to their romantic relationships. 99% sounds pretty good to me. People tend to get nervous and have all sorts of anxieties and fears when their heart is involved So, no offense, but I don't really view this as some particular ENFJ insight. I don't mean to sound harsh so please don't take it that way. This is the stuff most romcoms (that sounds so deliciously sinister!) and charmingly disarming independent films are made of, which to me implies it's prevalent enough for most people to identify with it.

    The ever-present SELF-ESTEEM and INSECURITY bomb! Where is Mr. Munch when I need him?
    Sure, but it manifests itself in different ways in different people. This is how it seems to show in ENFJs. An INFP's insecurity may prevent them from ever even forming any kind of relationship, much less taking a casual one to a deeper level.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #37
    Senior Member Cypocalypse's Avatar
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    One of my closest friend is an ENFJ.

    She's a very good long-term girlfriend material. I mean, VERY. She's probably the only true girls I know that can beat my very good, pretty, archetypal ISFJ girl-next door girlfriend a run for her money.

    Probably, in most cases, an ENFJ girl would beat a domesticated ISFJ girl in a lot of aspects: Looks (though it's not MBTI related), charisma, intellect, affection, but there's one thing that an ENFJ can mess up pretty badly, and it's the fright that they have of choosing sides in the people they acquaint themselves with, to the point of becoming pretentiously friendly with the people that have hurt them badly.

    It could be because they fear a verbal retaliation from the side that they didn't choose.

    The sad part is, the lack of choice prevents them, sometimes, from being taken too seriously by the people that they're supposed to be keeping.

    In the end, no matter how well established their every aspect is, they still end up second rate to someone else.

    Just my two cents.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Drezoryx's Avatar
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    ^ lack of choice ? their inability to select decisively?
    if a type is going to put others before themselves its obvious they will end up behind those they are 'giving' to.
    Type 8 sx/sp/so
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Cypocalypse's Avatar
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    Lack of choice? Hardly. An ENFJ's acquaintance pool is too big, in my opinion. They never ran out of choice, acquaintance-wise.
    But speaking of lack of decision in allegiance, pretty much yeah. It's like ENFJ's have this goal of racking up acquaintances, but have this idealism that all they end up knowing will get along fine.

    Edit for my wrong sentence construction: I should have used "lack of decision".

  10. #40
    Senior Member Drezoryx's Avatar
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    ^ actually its not about indecision - there is a wider point to be made here. NFs have a natural thought process moving towards integrated society with austere and harmonious values which are at odds with values of the world currently in vogue. i.e. differentiating on race, color or even children moving away from parents when they grow up, or prioritizing between work/home with huge work loads on everyone - this is all disintegrative, resource intensive thinking-process or personal-values.

    Same happens when an NF is forced to decide between competing claims say friends acquaintances etc. it just goes against their natural integrative and harmonious thought process. You cant blame them the world is pretty screwy with the values going around in the economy and political sphere trickling down to personal relations atm.
    Last edited by Drezoryx; 10-02-2009 at 03:54 PM.
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