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  1. #11
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Usually INFJs are the kings (or queens) of reopening topics and needing closure, so she should be able to understand if you need to know more than you do right now. Usually too I don't mind explaining to someone what they did wrong or why something wouldn't work out as long as I think the other person honestly wants to know. The only exception is once when someone lied to me extensively and it was obvious what they had done (and we were not dating!). I think you need to ask more questions.

  2. #12
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Usually INFJs are the kings (or queens) of reopening topics and needing closure, so she should be able to understand if you need to know more than you do right now. Usually too I don't mind explaining to someone what they did wrong or why something wouldn't work out as long as I think the other person honestly wants to know. The only exception is once when someone lied to me extensively and it was obvious what they had done (and we were not dating!). I think you need to ask more questions.
    *chuckling*

    there is no such thing as an open-and-shut case for infjs. the only reason we don't talk is to hide something from someone else (ie we don't know how to put it positively), we are unsure of what we want, or it is extremely negative for our Fe (ie hostility or an unhealed wound) that we can't deal with positively yet bc we go into Fe implosion.

  3. #13
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    CurlyJoe - how long ago was it that she was in the 9 year relationship that she said lasted too long? The fact that she seemed to mention the relationship to you multiple times seems significant to me.

    If it hasn't been long enough for her to heal from whatever went on in that relationship, I wonder if her decision is because of that. In my experience, the optimism, but then the seemingly sudden breakup with the "no feelings" explanation could result from her not being ready to care for someone in that way again.

  4. #14
    Junior Member CurlyJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLovecats View Post
    CurlyJoe - how long ago was it that she was in the 9 year relationship that she said lasted too long? The fact that she seemed to mention the relationship to you multiple times seems significant to me.
    That relationship ended 4 or 5 years ago -- enough time, I hope, to heal. She had one relationship since then with a man 10 years older than her. I can't remember how long it lasted (maybe 1 year) and I think that that one ended one year ago.

  5. #15
    Junior Member CurlyJoe's Avatar
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    I decided to follow the advice of istina, Lauren Ashley and fidelia and I contacted her, but not by phone. I hated so much being blindsided by that phone call from her, that I sent an email - not containing any questions, but simply saying that I accept her decision but want to ask some questions to better understand it. I also said that if she didn't want to discuss it any more that I would respect that.

    It's tough to put the ball in her court and to just wait for a possible call. But if I phone her and it's not a time when she is ready or able to talk for a while, I doubt that I would get the quality of answers that I want.
    Last edited by CurlyJoe; 09-25-2009 at 11:51 PM.

  6. #16

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    imho:
    3) no hope,
    2) she's truthful in saying it's 'her,' not 'you.' she probably has no idea why she hasn't got romantic feelings for you, and knows very well she can do nothing about it. everybody 'knows' those things, but infj's are above average stubborn about it.
    1) you should still call and ask whatever questions you need to ask in order to understand and get closure. and then move on.
    "It is only in folk tales, children's stories, and the journals of intellectual opinion that power is used wisely and well to destroy evil. The real world teaches very different lessons, and it takes willful and dedicated ignorance to fail to perceive them."

    - Noam Chomsky

  7. #17
    meat popsicle r.a's Avatar
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    yeah theres nothing wrong with calling. i have been "abruptly silent" with people before and cut them off like that, but sometimes i have secretely wished they had called me to inquire.

    its definitely NOT about you. that is for certain. she just doesn't know what she wants, which is tragic for a woman her age, but that seems to be the disease overall with many women i come across, no matter what the age.

    frankly, i have a soft spot for ISTP's so i wish you the best of luck, if not with her then with anyone else. you seem like a swell chap.
    "All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is destructive and evil. Leaders destroy the followers and the followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary."
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    J.Krishnamurti

  8. #18
    Junior Member CurlyJoe's Avatar
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    Well, I finally received the phone call that I requested from my ex. I had promised in an e-mail that I would not try to change her mind; I simply wanted to better understand her reasons. It was a hard promise to keep since I tried to avoid explaining away any of her reasons or becoming defensive. I think that that would be one form of trying to change her mind by eliminating her reasons.

    Be careful what you ask for... you just might get it! She was brutally honest.

    It wasn't that bad though. I had expected that I would have to prod her for reasons since she was not very forthright in the dumping call, but she was very open and constructive. Her main reasons were:

    1. My introversion - Even though she is also introverted, my introversion is greater and she felt that she had to struggle to keep the conversation going. Also, I didn't discuss the deeper issues that interest her. She feels that she is very opinionated and she wants to be able to share those opinions with the person close to her. She found that I would tend to steer the conversation to more mundane matters and she described us as being like an "old married couple" after a short time dating.

    2. My irrational exuberance for the relationship - I was expressing great optimism about how the relationship was going. She felt that there was a gap growing between how we felt about each.

    3. My simple living - I live in a small bachelor apartment (less than 400 sq. ft.). I have no cable and my furnishings are spartan (she referred twice to the fact that I have no pictures hanging on the wall). I have no car, but I belong to a car-sharing co-op. I wear very casual clothes outside of work. She also saw several books on voluntary simplicity on my bookshelf. She said that there is no way that she could live like that: she prefers to have some creature comforts. She enjoys her cable TV, likes to wear nice clothes and wants to go away for a vacation every year.

    My internal reaction after I heard all of this was "Is that it? Is that all you got?" Some people may reply that I should have questioned some of these points right then and there. But I got the sense in this call and the last that her mind is made up already. Is it true that INFJs rarely change there mind once it is set? However, I am still free to call her and discuss it in the future. Maybe some time to reflect on what she said might be beneficial.

    So, were I to have replied, here are some things that I might have said:

    1. She was absolutely right. I am more introverted than her and I did tend to talk about mundane things at times. It's my nature to talk about concrete things in the present. Everything seemed fine in our communication during phone calls and dates until we spent four solid days together for the Labor Day weekend (we both had the Friday off work). Yeah, I may have discussed how much I like peanut butter on my toast at the breakfast table. I'm sorry if that's not deep enough for you, but it's hard to stick to deep subjects for four days when you've only known someone for six weeks at that point. I had not bothered to consider her type and what style of communication she might prefer until after she dumped me. Had I done that, or had she expressed this concern to me, I feel that I could have done something about it. She brought up her ex-boyfriend whom she lived with for 9 years with respect to this topic. She said that he was a lot like me: very quiet and not prone to discussing deeper issues. She was not happy in that relationship and did not want to fall into a similar one. She gave him 9 years, but she didn't even give me 9 weeks or the opportunity to adapt to her needs. Behaving against one's primary type is difficult. I would have struggled with it at the age of 20, but I'm 41 years old now; I would have appreciated a chance to try.

    2. She was absolutely right. I did go overboard in expressing my optimism. The crazy thing is that that is not what I am normally like. I had been criticized in the past by girlfriends who said that I never expressed my feelings or gave any sense of how I felt the relationship was going. I seem to have overcorrected this time. But I was mirroring her behavior to a great deal. She was also expressing optimism until about a week before she ended it. During that week, she said that she was tired and I accepted that, so I was blind to a few growing hints. When she dumped me, she explained that she had no feelings for me. My gut reaction was, "Of course you have no feelings for me. I have no feelings for you. It's only been two months!" I didn't say anything because it takes me many months for feelings to start for someone, but I didn't know what was normal for her or what she expected.

    3. She was waaaay off base on the voluntary simplicity thing. It's true that I have read about living simply and make a conscious choice to live as I do even though I earn a good salary. But this does not mean at all that she would have to live as I do now if we were to eventually live together. Voluntary simplicity is about making conscious choices instead of being caught up in consumerism and keeping up with the Joneses. I never made an oath to never own a car again or to live in a cramped apartment for the rest of my life. She made a huge assumption on this one without ever asking me about my thoughts on voluntary simplicity. If she is so interested about values and deeper issues, why did she never ask me about this? It's not like she is looking for a sugar-daddy. She is a social worker and I am an engineer. We didn't discuss salary, but I guess that I earn twice what she does. Her lifestyle is pretty simple already and she prides herself on being independent and taking care of herself. She doesn't want someone to buy her expensive things. When I mentioned above that she liked to wear nice clothes, for her that means buying some $25 shirts that are not chic but are at least somewhat in fashion. That lifestyle is not at odds with mine. I really wish that she had not jumped to conclusions on this one.

    Overall it was a good conversation with her. Since I made no effort to change her mind about her reasons, that discussion lasted no more than 20 minutes but the phone call lasted two and a half hours. There is no bitterness at all between us, so it was easy to have a friendly chat but it was quite surreal considering that we had just dissected the breakup. I tried my best to discuss weightier matters like her career goals. I feel that empty words about how I am confidant that I can change my behavior are not as powerful as actually demonstrating changed behavior. Of course, with her being an astute INFJ, this tactic was probably totally transparent to her.

    So where do things stand now?

    We had a nice conversation, but I am convinced that her mind is made up. We are opposites, but I am convinced that it can work because we are both mature enough to develop our weaker functions and to communicate well with each other ONCE WE HAVE BEEN MADE AWARE OF THE ISSUE. She was burned in a past relationship, but I feel that she was too quick to judge in this case.

    I'm sure that I will talk to her again, but I will take some time first to consider what she said.

    Any thoughts?

    Regards,
    CurlyJoe

  9. #19
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyJoe View Post

    Be careful what you ask for... you just might get it! She was brutally honest.
    Oh yes...if people want the real scoop on where things stand, and ask for it....I will give it to them.


    But I got the sense in this call and the last that her mind is made up already. Is it true that INFJs rarely change there mind once it is set?
    Speaking for myself.....I put enormous amounts of time/thought into my relationships, and reasons behind why I'm in them, what's working, what's not...so if I've already thought about it and come to a conclusion, especially around my not seeing long-term potential, I'm highly unlikely to change my mind.

    I don't want to go into each of the three reasons she gave you, as they're her own reasons. I will say, though, that there may be a few others as well, - these are just the concrete ones she felt comfortable outlining for you.

    For me -- the LAST thing I want is for another person to change to accommodate me. I'm all about people being their natural self when it comes to general personality characteristics/themes... I don't think these basic characteristics are things that can *really* change, for the long haul. Sure, the other person might try to accommodate/flex/work on a few of the little things, but the major traits are set in stone - as they should be. Again, I don't want to change the person, and don't want the person to have to change himself to make the relationship work. That doesn't seem right. He deserves someone who doesn't need him to change...you know? So if the dynamic, as it is, without my hinting on large things that don't jive with me well in the end, isn't working well, then it's not working well, it's not what I'm really seeking, so I'll end it.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    We put friends, family, associates and lovers through a gauntlet of tests to see if they are worth it.


    When I get wind of this, I often purposefully screw up.

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