[ENFP] Hate an ENFP? Tell us why!

[ergophobe]

yeah that's kinda what I meant - that whether you say 'I feel' or give concrete examples, or however you put it, essentially what you're doing is bringing up a problem you have with another person which, obviously, at least initially, you would consider to be at least partly their fault. So I'm just wondering how you could consider it possible that someone could feel hurt by something you've done or said, and yet still somehow raise the issue with you without in any way suggesting any fault on your part.

That's the first part, and secondly, that even if that IS achieved, verbally at least, it's of little consequence if the other person still just interprets you wrongly anyway because of a tendency towards taking things personally and being overly defensive.

I just don't get how you're supposed to say to someone "I'm upset because when X happened you said Y" - giving concrete example there and talking in terms of "I feel", WITHOUT it implicitly being a criticism, and implying blame on the other person's part.

Sub -- you're right, it is a form of criticism. We are pointing to what should be criticized and how not questioning the criticism itself. My goal is a practical one -- how to better reach the ENFP in question.

Amargith's rules and what I suggested help you bring it up better with the ENFP, pointing to the behavior versus the personality and what they consider core values. ENTPs don't define themselves as people persons do they? We define ourselves as idea and people persons. We do harbor the self-image (sometime accurately and sometimes less so) that we understand people well and that we are empathetic and egalitarian - protective of others rights too. This is why criticism in the interpersonal realm is more hurtful to us. It would be like attacking your core competency in your field. Doesn't mean that it can't or shouldn't be done. When presented in the way we suggest, it is received better because we can distinguish the concrete examples as something we can change. We have power over that.

The best, unfortunately religious metaphor I can think of is that of the sinner versus the sin. We prefer that the sin be pointed out. Wouldn't you prefer that someone pointed out a particular competency related weakness versus calling you incompetent? You can correct the particular problem and it is easier to accept. I hope this helps.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Actually, I'd be interested in hearing your POV, as to why NJs are so quick to make up their mind about people. Coz it's something I don't really dare to do, so it would be intriguing to hear how you guys go about that.

That's the point. It's not "quick." It only seems that way to Ps who like to vacillate forever.

 

[Amargith]

So allow us a glimpse into how NFJs go about it, and let's compare notes

 

[Moiety]

Ps say that about me. But that is from their perspective. Call me an NJ


Oh please. You like to throw around the term "stereotyping" a lot. You might want to check the name of the website you are on.

You must think I've gleaned that perspective only from your posts in this thread. Wrong. And I understand what it means to play devil's advocate. I also know what it means to take an affront on your type as an affront on yourself. We're all guilty of it, to an extent.

Regardless, I still like you and I've learned much from my conversations with you. Don't believe if I point out negative qualities, that is all I can see.

Sytpg

lol, this is what I'm talking about. No need for disclaimers of that kind. I'm not taking this personally. A forum is not always a place to make oneself perfectly understood I guess.

And that is why I throw the term "stereotyping" a lot. It seems if I don't, my posts fail to be regarded as coming from a place of detachment. It seems if I don't, you feel the need to reassure me that you're not attacking me. I don't get if that is fueled by a perceived idea of how ENFPs should be dealt with or something. Maybe it's not. Sorry if that is the case.

Listen, I'm not here to protect the honor of my fellow ENFPs brethren or anything. Depending on the circumstances, you'd see me doing the same for any other type. I just happen to be an ENFP and obviously take active interest in the threads that talk about my type more so than others.

Since you've mentioned that you haven't gleaned that perspective only from my posts in this thread alone...you've now made me interested in knowing exactly what you're talking about. Maybe if you address that last paragraph of my last post, you'll gain further insight into the mind of an ENFP . Don't want to put you on the spot or anything but pray clarify at some point I am trying to understand and not being defensive. I hope that is clear.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

So allow us a glimpse into how NFJs go about it, and let's compare notes

This thread isn't about NFJs. Maybe start a new one and I'll post in it. I don't want to derail this thread.

 

[Moiety]

I just feel that if we explain where we come from, we have a better way of understanding each other and bridging the gap. Ironically, that might actually be perceived as being defensive and make things even more complicated. In reality, it's just my frustration at the misunderstanding and my inability to solve it that on occasion is showing

Very well put. This is the impression I get. If one could talk face to face it would be a lot simpler and clearer.

 

[Laurie]

I have a hard time giving up on discussing something I want to understand. It definitely makes it hard with some types who don't really want to discuss anything. There are situations I just need to understand and when I do I can let them go, until that point I can not. Not being able to understand what happened or motivations can be a big problem for me.

This is normally just in serious relationships (friendships or romance) and the relationship can be hindered if I can't understand the issue I need to understand. This can make me appear repetitive and nit picky, if you don't understand the underlying motivation.

 

[Qre:us]

Random q: what the heck is up with like 9 linebacks to Facebook for this thread?

 

[jenocyde]

ENTPs don't define themselves as people persons do they? .

Kiersey describes ENTPs as "keen judges of the pragmatics of both social and technological organization, and often become expert at improving relationships between means and ends".

Also "And they are skilled at engineering human relationships and human systems, quickly grasping the politics of institutions and always aiming to understand people within the system rather than to judge them."

But to further your point about separating the sinner from the sin, it's virtually impossible to say something about a personal characteristic that isn't personal. I know no way around that.

That being said, to all the dissenters: we all have our "flaws" and "faults", all of us. The fact that we notice it and point it out when asked (see thread title) is not indicative of judgment. Merely observation. If it doesn't apply to any of you specifically, simply disregard it.

I certainly don't go around criticising my ENFP friends, I am merely venting with you guys about patterns I have noticed, and that others have noticed as well. Not every ENFP (or person) is evolved enough to follow the "rules" and there are more than a fair share that react with defense at any perceived slight, regardless of how true it is.

 

[Qre:us]

ENTPs don't define themselves as people persons do they?

If I was any more of a people person, I'd have to hire me a PR dude/ette.

 

[garbage]

This whole thread is personally offensive to me

 

[Moiety]

This whole thread is personally offensive to me

 

[garbage]

stop laughing at me

 

[Moiety]

stop laughing at me

Man you ENFPs need to stop being so defensive...sheesh.

 

[LadyJaye]

Man you ENFPs need to stop being so defensive...sheesh.

Seriously. You're all so combative and confrontational.

 

[garbage]

stop turning everything into a big joke

 

[Tiny Army]

It's too late. We're all on our ENFP high horses now.

We now actively refuse to take anything seriously (but it's okay because we're silently judging everyone all the time anyway).

 

[CzeCze]

^^

Way to let the cat out of the bag, guys!

---
I do have three more serious questions that I didn't see get answered - or maybe I was being a typical P and scanning the pages too fast --

But Sub said ENFPs can have idealized self-images and a sense of entitlement. What exactly does this mean?

And Tiny Army, you mentioned you think there are 4 basic types of ENFPs? What are they?

I do kinda get what 'idealized self image' Sub may be referring to - as in an ENFP thinking s/he is magnanimous and kind or always right to the point of being beyond reproach. Basically the beginnings of a martyr complex or the whiny manipulator (yes, I've read descriptions of ENFP women like that on this forum by non ENFP males).

I honestly have not seen this even in the few people I've met who told me they tested as ENFP so it seems puzzling to me. Then again, maybe we were on the same page so I didn't read them as having an idealized self image. I've also seen "idealized self-image" in other people and other types (not even necessarily "F"s) and seen how it has directly impacted their personal relationships and caused conflict.

But the sense of entitlement - what does that refer to?

 

[Amargith]

Think the sense of entitlement is something that is perceived by others and it's what we refer to as our right to be ourselves.

Basically, they don't get why we aren't willing to fall in line and stop making such a fuss and we're like: "dude I don't tell you what to do either, so where do you come of telling me?"

As for the self-idealized image: because we self reflect a lot and try to figure out who we are and be the best we can be, we're rather protective of that image we build up, even if it's not finished yet. Hence, we prolly can be perceived as quite touchy if someone nitpicks at it
I dunno about you guys, but most of the legitimate feedback I get are things I know about already, and I'm already working on and it just annoys me that people can't accept me for what I am now and don't see that I am in fact working on it

 

[jenocyde]

I once suffered from a terrible migraine. My well meaning ENFP friend was so worried about me that she kept calling me to tell me how terrible she felt about it. I kept asking her not to call. So she shows up at my door with "goodies" for me. While well meaning, it's not pleasant to hear the bell and deal with blinding light from outside while suffering a migraine. When I was less than pleased to see her, she got on her high horse about what a caring person she is and how she was only trying to help because she felt sooooo bad about what I was going through. And how it's always about me. To this very day, whenever she talks about me being cold or mean, she uses "the migraine" as her example. I just sit back and sigh. I would love to see that self reflection that you guys talk about...

Like I said, in general, these boards make people self aware. But not everyone gets to hear the honest truth about themselves from 15 other types, much less friends that are afraid of dealing with the emotional meltdowns. So they live out their lives thinking that they are golden. (this goes for all types, not just ENFPs).