[ENFP] Hate an ENFP? Tell us why!

[Lady_X]

true, but it's not always actual real rights or generally held rights, so much as things you personally believe are your rights or should be your rights. see the distinction?

Say for example, not having a violent crime committed against you - that's an actual, real and generally held right that nobody could reasonably dispute against.

But Fi can also perceive lots things as "inalienable rights" that are actually more to do with their personal preferences and unique individual values. These would be those times when you say things like "But I have a RIGHT to know!" in a very rhetorical way, as if to say that nobody would dispute that or see things differently, when in fact they might well do so.

What I said earlier about INFP's vs ENFP's was referring to this sort of thing, that I get a general impression that INFP's are more able to discern and be aware of when it's an actual right that's been violated, and therefore worth getting het up about and contesting, and when it's a perceived right that's been violated, one that it doesn't go without saying that everyone would automatically know is important or a value to you, and so should be addressed more cautiously and with more flexibility.

(just speculating again)

you're right...never meant to imply otherwise...they are self appointed rights yeah. i have the right to be treated a certain way...i have the right to know certain things about someone i'm in a relationship with. ...but...as far as friends go...i would never feel i had the right to know everything about their life.

but yeah...i guess it depends on what we decide those rights are...and some people may have screwed up ideas about what they should be...which may result in poor relationships with people...not me though...i'm one of the cool ones.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

You tell them. They're not the boss of you.

We can hear you!

 

[Lauren Ashley]

What I said earlier about INFP's vs ENFP's was referring to this sort of thing, that I get a general impression that INFP's are more able to discern and be aware of when it's an actual right that's been violated, and therefore worth getting het up about and contesting, and when it's a perceived right that's been violated, one that it doesn't go without saying that everyone would automatically know is important or a value to you, and so should be addressed more cautiously and with more flexibility.

To be fair, some INFPs have this issue too. When I was younger, it was often a face-off between my father (INFP) and brother (ENFP) over whose values and rights were more "correct."

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

Regardless of the criticisms of ENFPs I've offered in this thread, I love the mature, confident ones.


The others can stay the hell away, but mature ENFPs are a joy to be around.

 

[LadyJaye]

We can hear you!

That's alright. You're not the boss of me either. So it works out.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

That's alright. You're not the boss of me either. So it works out.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

That's alright. You're not the boss of me either. So it works out.

You tell her, wifey!

 

[LadyJaye]

Regardless of the criticisms of ENFPs I've offered in this thread, I love the mature, confident ones.


The others can stay the hell away, but mature ENFPs are a joy to be around.

Perhaps we could erect some sort of electric fence...

Truthfully, I enjoy the company of any mature type. Secure people are always a joy to be around.

 

[substitute]

you're right...never meant to imply otherwise...they are self appointed rights yeah. i have the right to be treated a certain way...i have the right to know certain things about someone i'm in a relationship with. ...but...as far as friends go...i would never feel i had the right to know everything about their life.

but yeah...i guess it depends on what we decide those rights are...and some people may have screwed up ideas about what they should be...which may result in poor relationships with people...not me though...i'm one of the cool ones.

I'm sure you are!

I dunno tho if it's really a case of those rights being screwed up, so much as the Fi person just not acknowledging the self-appointed nature of them, which leads to trouble. You know, they might think it goes without saying, when in fact, it does need to be said and pointed out that you have this particular expectation because not everyone does, so the person you're dealing with now might well go against it and upset you without having any way of knowing it or avoiding it.

It might also cause problems if you then ascribe that sense of entitlement to that particular thing to other people, who don't see that as a right or have it as an expectation or even desire, yet you could well be avoiding the kind of behaviour that they would actually appreciate because you assume that, because if someone was that way with you, you'd be upset, therefore they must be also.

To be fair, some INFPs have this issue too. When I was younger, it was often a face-off between my father (INFP) and brother (ENFP) over whose values and rights were more "correct."

I guess I'm lucky, I've only ever known the most awesome of INFP's. There are a couple pain in the ass ones here I guess, but there are some truly awesome ones like Carebear and runvardh and Prplchknz, I'd marry them all if I could

 

[Amargith]

Wow..this thread suddenly blew up. Ok, fwiw, I'll add this:

If you want an ENFP to listen to your critiscism, you might wanna consider using the proper feedback rules:

1) Timing is everything
2) Don't use 'YOU did this or this' but 'that made me feel/think this and this and this and affected me that way'
3) allow time to process and time for a response
4) Take response on board, and do not dismiss it as an excuse
5) Find compromise/solution together
(this is actually from my 'human interaction' course, believe it or not. I'm willing to post the 'how to receive feedback properly' rules as well if anyone cares)

Also, realize that if you give critiscism to an ENFP, most of us need time to digest the comment. Trust me, we will take it on board. We're hardwired to do so. But if you push and demand an immediate 'oh you're right' you're bound to get a defensive reaction. And the most common one is: who the hell are you to judge me! And frankly..who the hell are you, no offense. I don't tell you how to live your life either, nor do I demand that you're perfect and obsessively get rid of your bad traits. It's who you are, and it makes you unique. Also, you're likely far from perfect yourself, so it's kind of hypocritical to give me unsollicited critiscism in a badly formulated way (see above rules which are almost never followed). You can be blunt all you want with me, and I will do the same. Doesn't mean I'll tell you that you are sooo right and immediately accomodate you. And yes, I might not feel the need to 'enjoy' your company after we've exchanged bluntness. That's my prerogative. That doesn't mean I didn't appreciate your honesty. I'll most likely be more than happy to talk to you afterwards as long as you make it clear you don't hold a grudge for not following your advice. I prefer honesty much more to passive aggressiveness, or fakeness. That just makes me paranoid.

Btw, just because we didn't change our behavior, doesn't mean we didn't take your comment on board. It just means that we didn't agree with it, or it isn't a priority to us. Aka, you could well be right, but it's not worth the effort to change it as the change would demand more energy than it's worth, in our opinion. However, if you use the above mentioned feedback rules, you are way more likely to get us to adapt our behavior when around you. I personally like accomodating people as long as they appreciate it. So while I might disagree with whatever it was that bothered you, I will gladly, if you make it clear that it bothered you, make an effort to not trigger your irritation when interacting with you.

As for the appologizing thing, I've been told too that I do it too much so..I dunno.


Disclaimer: all the above is a generalization and my fellow enfps will have to validate it works for them that way as well, otherwise it's just how I operate.

I also feel there's a lot of miscommunication, as I often feel others, (and often NFJs and NTPs, ime) putting words in my mouth which make me frustrated and deny what they say , which they then consider empty excuses. I'm sure the same applies the other way around as well. It's in fact one of the reasons I'm here, as I'd love to get passed that communication hurdle.

 

[substitute]

yeah that all sounds good Amargith, but it still seems to be following that general trend of "I never do wrong, and if I do, then it's justified and probably your fault for not satisfying my unspoken and highly unique rules of conduct in the first place, and I'm not sorry and never will be, so balls to you whether you're upset or not!"

Like you're actually doing the person a favour and honour to listen to them, you know, as if you're a king or queen with a peasant begging to get your pig back that his cook commandeered the day before. He'll listen to you, possibly, if you satisfy all the required court etiquette that you've no way of having learned before, but there's no guarantee that he'll admit it was wrong to take your pig or give it back, he probably has a charter that says it's actually his divine and royal right to have any pig he wants so you've no right to even feel aggrieved, and you should feel honoured that he even listened in the first place, now go away and no, there is no right of appeal!



(btw one of the distinguishing flaws of the ENFP that I was trying to express I've experienced was a rather idealized self-image, so even when they do say "I always listen to people" or "I always let people finish before I speak" or whatever, the reality very often doesn't match up to how they perceive themselves.)

It's interesting that there's still no acknowledgement there of any benefits to be gained by being rather more flexible with approaching others, or accommodating others' approaches - it's pretty much "my way or the highway" isn't it?

Heheh, new nickname for the ENFP: The Aristocrat!

 

[Amargith]

Not really
As stated, I'll gladly listen, and if you can give me a reason that in fact rings true for me, I'll be the first to appologize and try to change it. But you are in fact requesting something from me. You're asking me to fall in line...on your authority. That's not good enough, no. It doesn't make me royalty, it makes me your equal. If I were to in fact be royalty, I'd be demanding you pander to my 'corrections' in you.

I live by the rule 'harm none'. That unfortunately isn't always possible, but I go out of my way not to harm people and appologize when I do. Other than that, rules are indeed something I often don't see a use for. If you do, that's great for you, but don't force me to follow them. And if that bothers you, then we can just stay clear of each other, and give each other the space to each live our own way. If that's not possible, a compromise can be reached, which I'm all for. But putting me on the defensive is indeed not the best way to get there. I'll still strive for that compromise though, despite feeling defensive.

 

[substitute]

Not really
As stated, I'll gladly listen, and if you can give me a reason that in fact rings true for me, I'll be the first to appologize and try to change it. But you are in fact requesting something from me. You're asking me to fall in line...on your authority.

No... that's actually not what people are asking most of the time. They're just asking that you actually listen and consider their feelings, and consider adapting your behaviour so as to be less insensitive. They're asking for you to be open to compromise and often implicitly saying that they're open to adapting their behaviour to make your life easier so why can't you meet them half way?

Jeez, and I thought ENTP's were supposed to be the ones who can't compromise!

...and it's all very well saying "harm none" etc, but are you quite sure that you're able to accurately perceive exactly what harms people within the patterns of your own behaviour, so much so that you're able to confidently dismiss anything they say to you that doesn't immediately "ring true"? Cos if you were able to do that, you'd have Fe as your highest function I reckon!!

 

[Amargith]

I just said I would gladly do so. If people tell me how I am in fact impacting them with my behavior, I'll try my best to avoid that impact when I'm around them. I don't see how I'm not compromising. In fact, I'm often told to stop accomodating others so much. But yes, it can depend on how it is formulated. If you outright accuse me/condemn my behavior, I'm less inclined to do this, though I'll still strive for compromise. See also my last comment in the other post: misunderstandings seem to happen on this a lot.
Also, if in fact you make a good point (aka for instance, you're harming someone), then I'll be the first to fall in line, as I want harmony as much NFJs do. And what is often perceived as 'making excuses', is most of the time just an explanation given so you can see why I acted the way I did, though I understand your POV now and will adapt accordingly.

My Fe tests quite high actually, though it drains me to use it. I don't dismiss what they said completely. I'll keep it in mind, even if it doesn't ring true to me when I'm around them, coz clearly, it is important to them.

 

[Lady_X]

yeah that all sounds good Amargith, but it still seems to be following that general trend of "I never do wrong, and if I do, then it's justified and probably your fault for not satisfying my unspoken and highly unique rules of conduct in the first place, and I'm not sorry and never will be, so balls to you whether you're upset or not!"

Like you're actually doing the person a favour and honour to listen to them, you know, as if you're a king or queen with a peasant begging to get your pig back that his cook commandeered the day before. He'll listen to you, possibly, if you satisfy all the required court etiquette that you've no way of having learned before, but there's no guarantee that he'll admit it was wrong to take your pig or give it back, he probably has a charter that says it's actually his divine and royal right to have any pig he wants so you've no right to even feel aggrieved, and you should feel honoured that he even listened in the first place, now go away and no, there is no right of appeal!



(btw one of the distinguishing flaws of the ENFP that I was trying to express I've experienced was a rather idealized self-image, so even when they do say "I always listen to people" or "I always let people finish before I speak" or whatever, the reality very often doesn't match up to how they perceive themselves.)

It's interesting that there's still no acknowledgement there of any benefits to be gained by being rather more flexible with approaching others, or accommodating others' approaches - it's pretty much "my way or the highway" isn't it?

Heheh, new nickname for the ENFP: The Aristocrat!

so funny...i agreed with most of amargiths post and then to see this perspective is hilarious!

and damn...it's kinda true. i just don't think we like people thinking they have some right to modify our behavior...because really who the hell are you! haha...that's funny...not sayin it's right or wrong but it's sure as hell funny.

i think it just comes from that live and let live mentality...most of the issues i have with people are about them trying to tell me how to be...not the other way around...not something i do...so...i guess i can't relate a whole lot to the mentality of someone who does.

 

[Amargith]

+1

You're right, Lady X, that's just it. My motto usually is: plz don't ask me to change who I am, but feel free to make suggestions, and I'll gladly consider them

And ime, it seems to be a great head ache to those that do feel there are social rules to be followed by everyone. And I do feel guilty about giving them that head ache, but I sometimes feel like they're asking me to just be a different person coz it's more convenient. So who's right? I dunno

Do you by any chance agree with the feedbackrules I posted? That that's the best way to get an ENFP to listen to you?


Ps: Can't say I object to the nickname Aristocrat...sounds good to me
Though I personally think maybe 'Outlaw' would be a more accurate choice

 

[Thessaly]

hmm...i haven't caught up but...just as response to this. who are you to be correcting enfps anyway...do we walk around trying to correct you? i doubt it...i sure as hell don't do that so if we don't seem to love criticism or being corrected it has a lot to do with personal rights ya know...like you do what you want and i'll do what i want...ya know...people need to stop expecting others to follow their rules and they won't be disappointed.

Well I have my ex roommate in mind so my criticisms were related to our living situation like keeping things tidy and being quiet at reasonable hours. I'm not sure what you mean by personal rights? I'm not one to maliciously criticize someone or even criticizing in general, especially on a personal level. I'm an INFP...we don't do confrontation lol. If I correct someone it's either because I've been solicited for said critique or because it's necessary for a proper healthy relationship - personal or work.

 

[CzeCze]

I agree with Jaye. It's bizarre but a lot of the criticisms against ENFPs in this thread are experiences I have had personally with INFPs. I think this might be due to varying levels of Fi use. I know I am more comfortable using Te in extroverted scenarios than Fi.

:yim_rolling_on_the_

That's what I was saying.

Tiny Army's quote ^^ is as far as I got reading the responses before wooziness reminded me I was about to start cooking and I'm hungry (let's hear it for 'P's!)

But this thread is finally getting juicy.

laceholder:

 

[jenocyde]

You're right, Lady X, that's just it. My motto usually is: plz don't ask me to change who I am, but feel free to make suggestions, and I'll gladly consider them

I don't know about all that, but when I say I have to get off the phone (like in my previous example) please just let me get off the bleeping phone or don't get upset when I curse you out or hang up on you. After that whole exchange, don't make it about you being mad at me for getting upset and never acknowledging your part until I give you a satisfying reason on why I had to go in the first place. Because it's none of your business why I had to go. And it's entirely your own fault you got hung up on. That's all I'm saying... It's no bigger than that, really. Other than that, we're fine.

 

[Amargith]

I don't know about all that, but when I say I have to get off the phone (like in my previous example) please just let me get off the bleeping phone or don't get upset when I curse you out or hang up on you. After that whole exchange, don't make it about you being mad at me for getting upset and never acknowledging your part until I give you a satisfying reason on why I had to go in the first place. Because it's none of your business why I had to go. And it's entirely your own fault you got hung up on. That's all I'm saying... It's no bigger than that, really. Other than that, we're fine.

LOL, completely agree with you. I too have trouble hanging up, as I love to chat. I have no problem with someone telling me bluntly that it's been fun but they need to run. Sounds like insecurity/abandonment issues to me, really, but I could be wrong.