[ENFP] Hate an ENFP? Tell us why!

[Laurie]

Bat Shi Crazy!

 

[skylights]

I've found this sort of misinterpretation/projection to be common with the ENFPs I have known. I have a whole lot of fun with them, and I don't mean to be hypercritical.

My dad and younger brother are both INTPs, and this kind of conflict arises with us, too. I think what happens is that since you guys use a hard logical value system for the most part, and we use a soft ethics value system for the most part, we read your speech patterns like we would read our own, and assume that you make the connections that you make for the same reasons we would make them, which isn't true, of course. When we scan things, we look for the personal interpretation... so with the cop example, just like Starry brought up, it's rather confusing why you would say that at all - I do pick up a sort of negative implication out of it as well, even though that clearly wasn't intended. In ENFP language, them's fightin' words!

Agreed. Without context, the cop becomes an obvious comparison to her husband. At the very least offensive, this seems the same as saying "I don't have anything to do with people like your husband."

Yeah. The INTPs I know usually happen to be fairly (understatement) proud of their intelligence, too, so that's usually part of the context. Like oh, I was in debate club, and my people don't want to be cops...

The other person in the conversation actually did say something overtly negative about police officers, and the ENFP in question didn't bat an eyelash at him. It was my statement to which she took offense. When I confronted her with this, she replied that my opinion was more important to her.

I wasn't there of course, so I don't really know, but if you were a close friend of someone important to me, I would hold you to a higher standard too - and of course, depends on what kind of negative thing was said. Sometimes blunt truth doesn't really bother ENFPs - but it all depends on how it's worded.

I think that's why we often seem to get along with TJs more easily than TPs, because the way TJs word blunt things is usually very clearly impersonal, but TPs can word things in a way that strikes me as personally offensive, even though they don't usually seem to mean it to be. FPs and TJs are more protective/careful of the individual's inner values and emotions, and less likely to attack there, because to us (at least to FPs), the intrapersonal individual is a very sensitive and almost sacred thing. Like one day my INTP dad said to me, "you're an embarrassment" - which I guess to him was pretty factual, but really struck me hard, because I interpreted it to mean that my whole being was negative and he didn't see any good side in my existence, and with him being my father, that statement really hurt to the core. I broke down and cried; he said I was too sensitive and walked away, as usual.

Chance of being Bat Shi Crazy! correlates with extremes in intelligence

 

[herbpixie]

My dad and younger brother are both INTPs, and this kind of conflict arises with us, too. I think what happens is that since you guys use a hard logical value system for the most part, and we use a soft ethics value system for the most part, we read your speech patterns like we would read our own, and assume that you make the connections that you make for the same reasons we would make them, which isn't true, of course. When we scan things, we look for the personal interpretation... so with the cop example, just like Starry brought up, it's rather confusing why you would say that at all - I do pick up a sort of negative implication out of it as well, even though that clearly wasn't intended. In ENFP language, them's fightin' words!

I think there may also INTP naivete at play here. I forget that people have to be told that I think they are awesome. I wouldn't hang out with non awesome people, so it is truly perplexing to me when my ENFP friends think I am being mean or judgmental. I am close to both her and her husband, so it's baffling to me that she would read those motivations into what I said based on one sentence rather than the actions I've displayed through years of friendship with the both of them. I also find it interesting that every ENFP who has replied has interpreted my statement negatively, when there was truly zero malice or intent behind it.

Yeah. The INTPs I know usually happen to be fairly (understatement) proud of their intelligence, too, so that's usually part of the context. Like oh, I was in debate club, and my people don't want to be cops...

Sure, I'm proud of my intelligence. I am, after all, amazingly bright. I won't lie. I can be arrogant, but that's not a quality I tend to direct at my friends. I'm not friends with stupid people, so the arrogance becomes unneccesary. I wasn't being arrogant in this particular case.

I think that's why we often seem to get along with TJs more easily than TPs, because the way TJs word blunt things is usually very clearly impersonal, but TPs can word things in a way that strikes me as personally offensive, even though they don't usually seem to mean it to be. FPs and TJs are more protective/careful of the individual's inner values and emotions, and less likely to attack there, because to us (at least to FPs), the intrapersonal individual is a very sensitive and almost sacred thing. Like one day my INTP dad said to me, "you're an embarrassment" - which I guess to him was pretty factual, but really struck me hard, because I interpreted it to mean that my whole being was negative and he didn't see any good side in my existence, and with him being my father, that statement really hurt to the core. I broke down and cried; he said I was too sensitive and walked away, as usual. ...

I have also noticed that ENFPs don't like it when you say they're too sensitive, lol. The comment your father made was a bit harsh, and your reaction to that is at least understandable to me. I have had communication breakdowns with other ENFPs, though. One friend knows I hate the telephone, and she will call me and start rambling. She gets upset when I ask her to get to the point. I think it's interpreted as "I don't want to talk to you" rather than "I really resent the idea of the telephone." Unfortunately, by the time I realize where the communication breakdown has occurred, it is often too late to fix. And yeah, I will definitely cop to walking away or withdrawing when ENFPs start crying, either because I think they are trying to manipulate me emotionally or because I simply don't know what to do. At least if I walk away, I can't make it worse by sticking my foot in my mouth again.

I hope I did that whole quote thing right and this post doesn't look jacked up.

 

[AgentF]

And yeah, I will definitely cop to walking away or withdrawing when ENFPs start crying, either because I think they are trying to manipulate me emotionally or because I simply don't know what to do.

the only time i ever pretended to cry i burst out laughing.

At least if I walk away, I can't make it worse by sticking my foot in my mouth again.

worse. the walking away looks like rejection from an ENFP's standpoint.


p.s. this thread is odd. it's like going to the circus and kicking the clown in the groin. cos when you were 7 you saw "IT"

 

[herbpixie]

worse. the walking away looks like rejection from an ENFP's standpoint.

I know from experience that if I stay, I will manage to somehow say the exact wrong thing. From the ENFP's standpoint, it may be worse. From my standpoint, I know just how bad it *can* get if I do stay. I always come back later to work it out when the crying part is done.

 

[AgentF]

I know from experience that if I stay, I will manage to somehow say the exact wrong thing. From the ENFP's standpoint, it may be worse. From my standpoint, I know just how bad it *can* get if I do stay. I always come back later to work it out when the crying part is done.

how do you know you're saying the wrong thing?

pro tip: it's always nice if someone says they're coming back later...

 

[herbpixie]

how do you know you're saying the wrong thing?

pro tip: it's always nice if someone says they're coming back later...

It's usually pretty obvious. The emotional reaction is usually completely unexpected to me. I need time to withdraw and process what has happened and how to approach the situation. If I am hit upside the head with a 2x4 of emotion, I just don't know the right way to respond without thinking about it. If I am not given that time, I can become defensive. And of course I'll come back for a friend. There is my INTP naïveté again. I am stubbornly loyal to my friends. I assume they know that.

 

[Starry]

LMAO.

Because another person in the conversation spoke about a future cop in a club he was in. The conversation drifted to clubs in general. My only reason for saying that was to clarify that we were no longer on the subject of cops; we had moved on to clubs.

ENFPs are sensitive to *slights* of any kind…especially if they are directed towards another individual or group. I mean, the fastest way to get an ENFP to go from ‘wow…look at that beautiful rainbow’…to *fangs* and WTFFFFFF????? (and we can turn-sour fast) is to slight someone.

Likewise, everything is connected. In a big pattern of information. I mean…perhaps you are/were completely innocent and ignorant of ‘the seemingly commonly held opinion’ that ‘all cops are working-class, donut-eating, idiot-assholes’ (Juice's illustration)…and ‘all members of the debate club go on to become part of the 1%’ < --- but I’m going to go out on a limb here and say she probably didn’t think you were. Like I stated earlier…she will be naturally inclined to assign a reason to why you said what you said (there are no accidents)…and that reason will be based-off of the patterns she sees around her…and the pattern of behavior she has come to expect from you. And by the latter I mean…if anything you have ever said before (lol)…hints at some sort of ‘intellectual superiority’…it will have an accumulation effect…and she will react to that (as well).

And again…yes. You may be totally innocent here…and like you said merely awkward in your communication. But she can believe all of this without you believing it…if that is what the ‘pattern’ is telling her. Damn ENFPs. Hate em.

 

[Laurie]

worse. the walking away looks like rejection from an ENFP's standpoint.

So true!

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I dont hate any ENFPs. My bestie is one but I do have one major complaint. She will volunteer her negative opinion of my friends or someone Im dating. Its more superficial complaints than anything substantial but I hate that. Like, when did I ask your opinion?

Also, there's plenty of her friends I dont care for but I wouldnt say that. Its just rude. Maybe its an Fi thing.

 

[StephMC]

I dont hate any ENFPs. My bestie is one but I do have one major complaint. She will volunteer her negative opinion of my friends or someone Im dating. Its more superficial complaints than anything substantial but I hate that. Like, when did I ask your opinion?

Also, there's plenty of her friends I dont care for but I wouldnt say that. Its just rude. Maybe its an Fi thing.

Argh! My ENFP sister does the same exact thing. I've dated the same guy for nearly 3 years now, and she still talks about him like he's temporary and/or not good enough for me... without really giving a legitimate reason as to why. On top of that, she has the worst taste in men -- they're usually complete assholes

 

[herbpixie]

I mean…perhaps you are/were completely innocent and ignorant of ‘the seemingly commonly held opinion’ that ‘all cops are working-class, donut-eating, idiot-assholes’ (Juice's illustration)…and ‘all members of the debate club go on to become part of the 1%’ < --- but I’m going to go out on a limb here and say she probably didn’t think you were. Like I stated earlier…she will be naturally inclined to assign a reason to why you said what you said (there are no accidents)…and that reason will be based-off of the patterns she sees around her…and the pattern of behavior she has come to expect from you.

Not unaware of the perception of cops, no. But debate club is the top 1%? Ha. I work in public health, and many of my former classmates teach high school. My pattern has actually been to defend cops (in her presence) to mutual cop hating friends who have this notion that they are all evil bullies. So this really comes out of left field in my point of view.

I don't mean to harp on this one example, it was just one of the more perplexing interactions for me. This sort of misunderstanding has occurred with multiple (confirmed) ENFPs. I also truly don't mean to be down on your lot. I just seem to have more misunderstandings with your type than any other, and it's weird to me because I otherwise have a lot of fun with ENFPs.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Argh! My ENFP sister does the same exact thing. I've dated the same guy for nearly 3 years now, and she still talks about him like he's temporary and/or not good enough for me... without really giving a legitimate reason as to why. On top of that, she has the worst taste in men -- they're usually complete assholes

Yup. It's strange. My ENFP can't see that she's been in the same situations, at the very least. You know, glass houses, stones and all that. That is lost on her. Yet, if I brought it to her attention she would become defensive and take offense. It's just one of those things I have to bite my tongue about IRL...and complain about it on TypeC.

 

[Starry]

Not unaware of the perception of cops, no. But debate club is the top 1%? Ha. I work in public health, and many of my former classmates teach high school. My pattern has actually been to defend cops (in her presence) to mutual cop hating friends who have this notion that they are all evil bullies. So this really comes out of left field in my point of view.

I don't mean to harp on this one example, it was just one of the more perplexing interactions for me. This sort of misunderstanding has occurred with multiple (confirmed) ENFPs. I also truly don't mean to be down on your lot. I just seem to have more misunderstandings with your type than any other, and it's weird to me because I otherwise have a lot of fun with ENFPs.

I don't mind you 'harping' on one example. I sometimes find looking at an isolated incident under a lens...and then applying it to the bigger picture helpful...and I really appreciate you sharing it. I also find it helpful...when people are brave enough to express what troubles them about ENFP behavior or what challenges they come-up against - for my own understanding (and I'm sure I could come-up with way more things that trouble me about ENFPs then you ever could).

What I was attempting to explain above - well it is difficult to describe. But I stand by what I said...in spite of the fact it probably made no sense haha. There is probably something there with regards to that sense of 'intellectual something'...as in...for her...you defending cops and proclaiming they are not evil bullies...will not automatically translate into you thinking they are smart. But I won't go on about that anymore.

And I'll end with this (the flip side). It has been my experience with INTPs that they will read 'emotion' into my words and/or behavior where none exists...or at least doesn't exist at the magnitude the INTP seems to be experiencing it. And they will instantly try to shut-it-down (which may have the opposite effect as Fi really needs to be 'heard'). I'm assuming this is 5w4...but then again...while my INTJ and INFJ 5w4 friends may be uncomfortable with *emotion*...they seem more likely to deal with it in order to seek understanding than the INTPs I have encountered. But yah...I've had INTPs on this site say things like...'I'm sorry you were offended' or 'you seem upset'...and I'm like wth? haha. <--- Seriously...I've had this happen with INTPs when I have had literally NO feelings one way or the other at all (and I'll be like shit...I wonder what they would think if I actually was offended haha). So yah...I've had experiences with INTPs where they think there is a problem with me when there really isn't from my end. In the end everything is relative.

 

[Starry]

I dont hate any ENFPs. My bestie is one but I do have one major complaint. She will volunteer her negative opinion of my friends or someone Im dating. Its more superficial complaints than anything substantial but I hate that. Like, when did I ask your opinion?

Also, there's plenty of her friends I dont care for but I wouldnt say that. Its just rude. Maybe its an Fi thing.

Argh! My ENFP sister does the same exact thing. I've dated the same guy for nearly 3 years now, and she still talks about him like he's temporary and/or not good enough for me... without really giving a legitimate reason as to why. On top of that, she has the worst taste in men -- they're usually complete assholes

Yup. It's strange. My ENFP can't see that she's been in the same situations, at the very least. You know, glass houses, stones and all that. That is lost on her. Yet, if I brought it to her attention she would become defensive and take offense. It's just one of those things I have to bite my tongue about IRL...and complain about it on TypeC.

Whoops...I was going to comment on these last night and at least awknowledge that I have done the above...but then forgot to (?). Okay so I'm doin it now... Yah...fortunately...in my case I have only done this to one other friend whom is also ENFP and in this way apparently spared the rest of the 15 types from this...but I will say that I didn't do it for the reasons or in the way you describe in your posts. I certainly wasn't speaking from a place above her as in...'look at all of these fantastic choices I have made in my life...why can't you do the same?' OMG no.

Over time I've noticed that there seems to be two kinds of people in the world (and no, after a great deal of thought, I really don't think I'm oversimplifying here). People that want friends that support them no matter what...or people that want friends to be completely honest with them at all times. And you really have to think about what kind of person you are...because I think a lot of people believe they want the 'always honest' friend lol...when in reality they totally don't. I think, for the most part, ENFPs fall into the 'always honest' category. It's like we really can't help ourselves...for many reasons including the fact we think out-loud (what saves us is that for the most part we are very accepting of others). And that may be Fi...however, I do have a few Fe friends that are the 'always honest' variety which I so appreciate.

Yah so anyway...it had nothing to do with 'glass houses' or 'stones' or 'me thinking I was better/more perceptive than my friend'. I was truly attempting to save her from what I thought was a bad situation... When we care about someone we can go a little overboard in wanting the absolute best for them.

Just tell your ENFP friends to shut-up.

 

[UniqueMixture]

I think many enfps are selfish without realizing it. They deserve this because they are so wonderfully amazing right? Right!?!?!?! Pff

 

[herbpixie]

And I'll end with this (the flip side). It has been my experience with INTPs that they will read 'emotion' into my words and/or behavior where none exists...or at least doesn't exist at the magnitude the INTP seems to be experiencing it. And they will instantly try to shut-it-down (which may have the opposite effect as Fi really needs to be 'heard'). I'm assuming this is 5w4...but then again...while my INTJ and INFJ 5w4 friends may be uncomfortable with *emotion*...they seem more likely to deal with it in order to seek understanding than the INTPs I have encountered. But yah...I've had INTPs on this site say things like...'I'm sorry you were offended' or 'you seem upset'...and I'm like wth? haha. <--- Seriously...I've had this happen with INTPs when I have had literally NO feelings one way or the other at all (and I'll be like shit...I wonder what they would think if I actually was offended haha). So yah...I've had experiences with INTPs where they think there is a problem with me when there really isn't from my end. In the end everything is relative.

I can't speak for all INTPs, but when that happens on my end (and it has happened) it's because the emotions of others can be SO unpredictable for me. I really do attempt to see where things can go awry. I'm just exceedingly bad at it. For the record, I'm a 5w6.

 

[StephMC]

Whoops...I was going to comment on these last night and at least awknowledge that I have done the above...but then forgot to (?). Okay so I'm doin it now... Yah...fortunately...in my case I have only done this to one other friend whom is also ENFP and in this way apparently spared the rest of the 15 types from this...but I will say that I didn't do it for the reasons or in the way you describe in your posts. I certainly wasn't speaking from a place above her as in...'look at all of these fantastic choices I have made in my life...why can't you do the same?' OMG no.

Over time I've noticed that there seems to be two kinds of people in the world (and no, after a great deal of thought, I really don't think I'm oversimplifying here). People that want friends that support them no matter what...or people that want friends to be completely honest with them at all times. And you really have to think about what kind of person you are...because I think a lot of people believe they want the 'always honest' friend lol...when in reality they totally don't. I think, for the most part, ENFPs fall into the 'always honest' category. It's like we really can't help ourselves...for many reasons including the fact we think out-loud (what saves us is that for the most part we are very accepting of others). And that may be Fi...however, I do have a few Fe friends that are the 'always honest' variety which I so appreciate.

Yah so anyway...it had nothing to do with 'glass houses' or 'stones' or 'me thinking I was better/more perceptive than my friend'. I was truly attempting to save her from what I thought was a bad situation... When we care about someone we can go a little overboard in wanting the absolute best for them.

Just tell your ENFP friends to shut-up.

I hear ya. I've tried to keep that more in mind over recent years -- that she really does belive she has my best interest at heart. The unfortunate thing is that we're so different that 9 times out of 10, what she thinks is best for me probably isn't really what's best for me.

And for some reason, as a T, it's harder for me to hear subjective criticisim (usually from F's) than it is to hear objective criticism (usually from T's). Also, if she gave me actual reasons, that would help to.

 

[skylights]

I dont hate any ENFPs. My bestie is one but I do have one major complaint. She will volunteer her negative opinion of my friends or someone Im dating. Its more superficial complaints than anything substantial but I hate that. Like, when did I ask your opinion?

Also, there's plenty of her friends I dont care for but I wouldnt say that. Its just rude. Maybe its an Fi thing.

Argh! My ENFP sister does the same exact thing. I've dated the same guy for nearly 3 years now, and she still talks about him like he's temporary and/or not good enough for me... without really giving a legitimate reason as to why. On top of that, she has the worst taste in men -- they're usually complete assholes

I will say that I didn't do it for the reasons or in the way you describe in your posts. I certainly wasn't speaking from a place above her as in...'look at all of these fantastic choices I have made in my life...why can't you do the same?' OMG no. [...]
I think, for the most part, ENFPs fall into the 'always honest' category. It's like we really can't help ourselves...for many reasons including the fact we think out-loud (what saves us is that for the most part we are very accepting of others). And that may be Fi...however, I do have a few Fe friends that are the 'always honest' variety which I so appreciate.

Yah so anyway...it had nothing to do with 'glass houses' or 'stones' or 'me thinking I was better/more perceptive than my friend'. I was truly attempting to save her from what I thought was a bad situation... When we care about someone we can go a little overboard in wanting the absolute best for them.

Just tell your ENFP friends to shut-up.

Yeah, I read these, and had pretty much the same reaction as [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]. At least personally, if I'm making negative comments about someone - even if they seem superficial - it's because I honestly think they are harmful in some way. ENFPs really do have a hard time not speaking what is, to us, personal truth, because we feel a certain degree of responsibility to share our perception. What kind of friend would I be if I saw negative things coming and said nothing? I suppose I could just live and let live, but I treasure the people around me for calling me out and setting me straight when I'm doing something harmful to myself, and I feel like I owe my friends the same - moreso the more they are important to me.

However, I also do have a bad tendency to make snippy remarks when I feel like someone hasn't taken me seriously, or is being completely oblivious to a bad situation. You know it's going to hurt the people involved and probably the people around them and you've tried to stop it but nothing's changed - it gets frustrating, like watching a train wreck from above and not being able to do anything.

That said, we will react to a good dose of Te - like Starry said, just tell her that you've heard her opinion and you have the right to make your own decisions without constant negative input.

I think many enfps are selfish without realizing it. They deserve this because they are so wonderfully amazing right? Right!?!?!?! Pff

I think almost every person on this planet is selfish without realizing it. And I do not feel wonderfully amazing most of the time, tbh. I feel like I am special in some ways, average in others, and shitty in some too. Kind of like everyone else. I think people tend to see ENFPs' shiny exteriors and forget that inside we are serious, anxious, and broody creatures. We hide that side of ourselves to protect both you and us.

 

[Spamtar]

I can't speak for all INTPs, but when that happens on my end (and it has happened) it's because the emotions of others can be SO unpredictable for me. I really do attempt to see where things can go awry. I'm just exceedingly bad at it. For the record, I'm a 5w6.

My ENFP Dad (in general a great man who I love dearly) can be this ways at times, especially on the occasions he is angry/frustrated. Its difficult to explain but those emotions (often displacement) can also lead to his displaced and inappropriate stance in an argument where there is an odd mix of his flawed logic heavily interjected with half truths and his throwing of his weight around. In these instances it gets to the point where it as if it were psionic attack. Where logic ends and it becomes like a game of chicken, an aggressiveness just short of violence (but which seems vulgarly unmanly). It gets to the point where I am worried that his conniption fit will harm his health.

Often when he gets that way, I make the pragmatic choice to retreat or even concede to his demand rather than belabor the point. The ultimate results however, is a lose/lose response. This is because any ground I concede is without good faith and thus passive aggressive traps are laid behind until it causes a problem; that will only after sufficient delay will become resolved.

By then he seems to address in a more open minded tactic and we then renegotiate (but often this ultimately causes more work by the damage done from my passive aggressive "concession" traps, than if we could have just initially worked it out in a fair, gentlemanly and logical manner.)