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  1. #981
    Unlimited Dancemoves ® AgentF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    At least personally, if I'm making negative comments about someone - even if they seem superficial - it's because I honestly think they are harmful in some way. ENFPs really do have a hard time not speaking what is, to us, personal truth, because we feel a certain degree of responsibility to share our perception. What kind of friend would I be if I saw negative things coming and said nothing? I suppose I could just live and let live, but I treasure the people around me for calling me out and setting me straight when I'm doing something harmful to myself, and I feel like I owe my friends the same - moreso the more they are important to me.
    agreed. ENFPs miss very little detail when it comes to people. we detect nuances in speech...eye twitches...pauses in communication...tension in your voice...discrepancies between what you say and do. can you imagine how exhausting it would be to keep all this inside? we see both the good in people but also much of the shite they think they're hiding. doesn't mean we're always right in our conclusions, but we pick up a lot of detail. so speaking out is a pressure release valve of sorts that is also directly related to our sense of integrity. i frequently vocalize what i see to my friends, and if it gets to be too much, i am usually quick to pick up on that. (as was noted, when all else fails just smack us with the Te stick--NTJs are particularly good about that.)

    but i will NOT keep my mouth shut if i detect something that will negatively affect someone i care about. and i care about most people.

    However, I also do have a bad tendency to make snippy remarks when I feel like someone hasn't taken me seriously, or is being completely oblivious to a bad situation. You know it's going to hurt the people involved and probably the people around them and you've tried to stop it but nothing's changed - it gets frustrating, like watching a train wreck from above and not being able to do anything.
    i know, right? i feel helpless to influence those kinds of situations (and we are pretty good at influencing situations, so we feel incredibly frustrated when we see an ugly inevitability. what bullshit to simply smile and nod when you see someone putting their hand in the blender.)

    I think almost every person on this planet is selfish without realizing it.


    I think people tend to see ENFPs' shiny exteriors and forget that inside we are serious, anxious, and broody creatures. We hide that side of ourselves to protect both you and us.
    beautifully put. we're a very sensitive breed that experiences both sides of every emotional extreme. we can barely manage to reign it in: what kind of stink bomb would hit the rest of the world if we were to expose you to it? the joy you see has a very worrisome twin.

    (a friend once asked me why i was always so cheerful. so i explained that it really wasn't the case, but that i chose to latch onto the happy side of things despite an awareness of The Ugly. she mockingly asked me "what do you know about ugly" so i let her into that world a bit. she then looked at me like i had just escaped from the crematorium at Auschwitz.)
    I may be kindly, I am ordinarily gentle, but in my line of business I am obliged to will terribly what I will at all.
    ~ Catherine the Great


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  2. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by herbpixie View Post
    Yeah, I know the thread is old, but I have more trouble with ENFPs than any other type. They're like sirens to me. I'm drawn in by the infectious giggling and having of the fun, but I am invariably caught up in a long talk about feelings. Usually what I have unintentionally done or said to hurt their feelings. Sometimes this is my own bluntness or messed up sense of humor. I fully admit that sometimes what I say comes across way more harshly than it is meant. As a clueless INTP, I'm often completely oblivious about what might offend someone. Many times, however, this is projection by the ENFP, and what I actually said has no logical connection to how they feel about what I said. Time and time again, I've gotten really close to an ENFP only to quietly withdraw when the emote fest becomes too much for me.

    For example, I have an ENFP friend who is married to a police officer. Her husband teaches a group of teenage kids who want to eventually become cops. The discussion went off topic and into clubs. I said, "I was in the debate club. No one in the club became a cop." She hears, "I think that debate club kids are really smart, and kids who want to become cops aren't intelligent enough to be a debater." I was quite taken aback, especially considering that her husband and I are friends. This led to a very long discussion about her feelings, which she prompty dropped when she became distracted.

    I've found this sort of misinterpretation/projection to be common with the ENFPs I have known. I have a whole lot of fun with them, and I don't mean to be hypercritical. Honestly, ENFPs make me laugh more than any other type. I just have to get away from them sometimes for my own sanity because their emotions can be rather overwhelming.
    Frankly, I read negative things into your comment as well. My first thought was, "She's saying cops are stupid." I really don't think it's the fault of the ENFP. I hear this kind of stuff from INTPs all the time (Fi users projecting onto INTPs' comments things that [supposedly] aren't really there), so much so that it makes me wonder whether it's really the Fi user projecting things onto the INTPs' comments, or the INTP being so fucking clueless about their own subconscious emotions/intentions that they say genuinely offensive things spurred on by subconscious emotions/intentions that they are simply completely out of touch with/unaware of/do not understand.

  3. #983
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ... I treasure the people around me for calling me out and setting me straight when I'm doing something harmful to myself, and I feel like I owe my friends the same - moreso the more they are important to me. ...
    Do you get defensive or take offense sometimes though, like MDP2525 mentioned? My sister does often. And if she doesn't get defensive, she seems like she ignores what I say. I gave up pointing out that the guy she was interested in is an asshole, only because she would pursue them anyways. She always has to see the good, and it doesn't end up working out... because in the end, turns out they were an asshole. Like you said, it's frustrating to watch the train wreck.... so I see why it's important to ENFPs to say something when they feel they should. But some ENFPs don't seem like the same in return.
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

  4. #984
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    It's quite possibly an ego thing. I very often think I see more of the truth then the person stating their opinion so I don't give it equal weight. Or it's that I value things differently than they do so it just hold true for me. I just prefer to make my own judgement calls.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #985
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentfurrina
    so speaking out is a pressure release valve of sorts that is also directly related to our sense of integrity. i frequently vocalize what i see to my friends, and if it gets to be too much, i am usually quick to pick up on that.
    Yes, exactly!!

    Honestly, I usually know when I'm pissing someone off with what I say, but I might keep saying it if I feel like it contains a grain of truth that would be healing, were it to be uncovered.

    Quote Originally Posted by StephMC View Post
    Do you get defensive or take offense sometimes though, like MDP2525 mentioned? My sister does often. And if she doesn't get defensive, she seems like she ignores what I say. I gave up pointing out that the guy she was interested in is an asshole, only because she would pursue them anyways. She always has to see the good, and it doesn't end up working out... because in the end, turns out they were an asshole. Like you said, it's frustrating to watch the train wreck.... so I see why it's important to ENFPs to say something when they feel they should. But some ENFPs don't seem like the same in return.
    Yeah, I'm pretty defensive in nature... Enneagram 6 and all that. But for me personally - and this has a lot to do with my enneatype, I believe - I'm very indecisive, so I tend to absorb others' opinions, maybe more than I should. They can send me into internal turmoil. I haven't had anyone I know criticize my boyfriend (of a year), but if they did, I would probably defend him against them externally, but really analyze what they said internally. It really is an important thing to note that ENFPs almost always keep their serious, broody, negative thoughts about themselves and things important to them inside themselves - I would honestly be very surprised if your comments haven't registered with her, especially if she seems to brush them off.

    As for ENFPs in general - the one thing I can say is that all ENFPs I've encountered seem quite willing to admit what we see as our faults (the problem, of course, being that we have to see them as faults!). Will your sister admit to having bad taste in men? Or have you discussed with her about relationships in general? Maybe there is something about the certainty of the assholes she dates that she is drawn to - I know that's true for me - I really seek a partner who is certain and self-assured. You might be able to resolve this issue with her by straightforwardly asking her what her real problem with your boyfriend is, and rebutting her points. ENFPs are first and foremost pattern-people, so if you can demonstrate to her that the pattern she thinks she is picking up on is an illusion, then her problems with him should vaporize. It does sound like a frustrating situation!

    Quote Originally Posted by agentfurrina
    beautifully put. we're a very sensitive breed that experiences both sides of every emotional extreme. we can barely manage to reign it in: what kind of stink bomb would hit the rest of the world if we were to expose you to it? the joy you see has a very worrisome twin.

    (a friend once asked me why i was always so cheerful. so i explained that it really wasn't the case, but that i chose to latch onto the happy side of things despite an awareness of The Ugly. she mockingly asked me "what do you know about ugly" so i let her into that world a bit. she then looked at me like i had just escaped from the crematorium at Auschwitz.)
    It surprises me how much people don't see this side of us and how striking it is to them when it is revealed. My boyfriend and I had this discussion around our 8 month mark - that clearly I harbor a lot of darker thoughts inside that I do not share, but they are as much me (if not more!) as my exterior. He seems to be intrigued by my darker energy but also dislikes the negativity, but I struggle with uncoupling those. I do think it is good for my subconscious to work on this, though... to integrate and pacify. He says that he is willing to share them with me if I can share them with him in a way that is not directing the negativity towards him (fair point, being that the turmoil usually only comes out when I am very upset). Ah, the joys of being an ENFP sx.

  6. #986
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by herbpixie View Post
    For the record, I'm a 5w6.
    I actually have no idea why I typed (only) 5w4...considering the fact my meaning was meant for all e5s...and especially because the INTJ friend I was referring to in my message is a 5w6 as well (but I still wrote 5w4 ??). The only thing I can come-up with is that I was focusing on INTPs...and perhaps my mind has a tendancy to associate the two. But I do know that not all INTPs are 5w4s (again...have no idea where my mind was there).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Frankly, I read negative things into your comment as well. My first thought was, "She's saying cops are stupid." I really don't think it's the fault of the ENFP. I hear this kind of stuff from INTPs all the time (Fi users projecting onto INTPs' comments things that [supposedly] aren't really there), so much so that it makes me wonder whether it's really the Fi user projecting things onto the INTPs' comments, or the INTP being so fucking clueless about their own subconscious emotions/intentions that they say genuinely offensive things spurred on by subconscious emotions/intentions that they are simply completely out of touch with/unaware of/do not understand.
    ^^^I'm going to be totally honest here and say that I have wondered the exact same thing!!! I just didn't know how to put my feelings/impressions into words...but you were somehow able to manage it (jealous of INxJs).

    My INTJ father... he will say all kinds of shitty, offensive things haha...but owns it.

    Now my experience with xNTPs is very different. I mean I haven't put it all together in my mind...but I guess what I can say is it often appears to me...that when an xNTP says something offensive and you call them on it...there is an immediate claim of 'innocence' (often followed by what feels like the xNTP turns your argument around on you)...which often leaves me baffled. ENTPs can start to remind me of the character of Harold Skimpole in Bleak House...in where I get the sense that they truly understand what is going on...but are capable of manipulating the situation by claiming 'innocence'. But I'm really left baffled by the INTPs. And yes...I do sometimes wonder if they are truly unaware or what. ((I guess I should put in some sort of disclaimer here that I mean no offense with what I am saying. I only seek understanding.))

  7. #987
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    I had not noticed this thread before...

    Let me write out my list.

  8. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ^^^I'm going to be totally honest here and say that I have wondered the exact same thing!!!
    Yeah, I've thought it a bunch of times, but I want to genuinely understand the phenomenon, so, until now, I've always given them the benefit of the doubt (while holding in mind the possibility that what I expressed above is correct), and said to myself, "Collect more observations before rushing to a judgment". This is the first time I've ever expressed the idea (hypothesis) out loud.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    My INTJ father... he will say all kinds of shitty, offensive things haha...but owns it.
    Yeah, that's exactly what I thought when I read @skylights' account about her father.

    My first thought: "What an asshole. Fucking shitbag INTP fathers."

    My second thought: "Does he really think that's not offensive/wrong. Is he just emotionally retarded/unaware (of himself and/or others)?"

    My third thought: "I could see myself saying that to my child, but only if I wanted to cause deep emotional distress (which would, in all circumstances I can imagine, have ulterior [positive] effectual motives). If I said it, I would be well-aware of the effect, and not follow it up with something as dumb as 'you're too emotional, get over it'. It would almost certainly be in an effort to try to get them to wise the fuck up, and causing an emotional shock to their system, in order to provoke a 'waking up' moment, would be its intent, so I just don't see how her father's combination of statements could ever be a justifiable thing to say. Well, unless you're an emotional fucking retard."

  9. #989
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    My INTJ father... he will say all kinds of shitty, offensive things haha...but owns it.

    Now my experience with xNTPs is very different. I mean I haven't put it all together in my mind...but I guess what I can say is it often appears to me...that when an xNTP says something offensive and you call them on it...there is an immediate claim of 'innocence' (often followed by what feels like the xNTP turns your argument around on you)...which often leaves me baffled. ENTPs can start to remind me of the character of Harold Skimpole in Bleak House...in where I get the sense that they truly understand what is going on...but are capable of manipulating the situation by claiming 'innocence'.
    I think that xNTPs are sometimes not willing to own some vague inference they make, when someone tries to nail them to it, (at least not until they feel the time is choice) this because often we are thinking multiple things at the same time in a reference like the legs of an octopus.

    We sometimes want to see where the conversation will swirl to so decide what choice we meant in retrospect.

    Similar to Humpty Dumpty's mindset when he responds:

    “I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.
    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”
    “But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
    “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
    “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
    “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.”'
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  10. #990
    Senior Member kyli_ryan's Avatar
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    I hate how much I love them!


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