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  1. #821
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    :rolli: sure, we'll fess up to that, if it's that important to you. The thing is, you can vent about it all you want, and you can even get told here that you have a point, but wtf is it going to matter? Is it going to magically solve your problems with ENFPs? Not bloody likely. So it serves no purpose. Learn to understand where ENFPs come from, and you're way more likely to actually get somewhere. You might find us too touchy at times, we consider you too bloody crude sometimes. How is that going to change? If we learn to see why that is, not bitch about it.

    For those who are interested, me and Jeno have in fact had some great conversations about this, using visitors msgs. I found it truly enlightening, in fact, to exchange thoughts
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  2. #822
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    :rolli: sure, we'll fess up to that, if it's that important to you. The thing is, you can vent about it all you want, and you can even get told here that you have a point, but wtf is it going to matter? Is it going to magically solve your problems with ENFPs? Not bloody likely. So it serves no purpose. Learn to understand where ENFPs come from, and you're way more likely to actually get somewhere. You might find us too touchy at times, we consider you too bloody crude sometimes. How is that going to change? If we learn to see why that is, not bitch about it.

    For those who are interested, me and Jeno have in fact had some great conversations about this, using visitors msgs. I found it truly enlightening, in fact, to exchange thoughts
    See, you used the word "bitching" like that's what you think I was doing. In fact my motives were just as constructive as you seem to think they aren't! I just don't get what it is with you guys... I just said I think you're great except that one thing, openly inviting and wanting you to explain why you do it or what's really going on so I could figure it out and try to understand where you're coming from, and what do I get?

    The usual irritable reply complete with implicit insults to my character as I'm assumed to be "pointlessly bitching" and more concerned about "being right" than actually finding an understanding!!! It's like your own allergy to other people making negative comments about your own character is equalled only by your own readiness to assume negative traits and motives in others!!

    I swear, it's like you're seeing it as entirely my job to see your point of view, but somehow to do this without ever expressing my own! That's honestly how it feels to me, and though i'm totally open to that being a misperception and to hearing how it's really meant, I'm really having to fight to keep that openness and benefit of the doubt mindset because it seems the harder I try, the more I just get seen as petty, unconstructive or whatever else you're implying!

    And to me, the part I've bolded is an example of the sort of thing that, to me, feels like total dismissal of the other person's feelings as unimportant. Like you're just humouring me and it really doesn't matter that I don't take kindly to people projecting their own lack of control or emotional oversensitivity onto me and blaming me or trying to make out I'm the bad guy when they get upset through just being too touchy. No, I'm not allowed to have any problem with that at all am I? And if I do, I'm just "being silly", right? So you can just roll out a dismissive phrase like that and that's supposed to actually make me think you're genuinely interested in exchanging views for true growth, rather than just shoving your views at me and demanding I adapt to them, whilst you don't have to adapt at all because that'd be "changing who you are"?

    In order to understand where you're coming from, I've got to at some point make some initial observation, haven't I, about the way I see you, for you to respond to and explain the errors of my perception?!
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  3. #823
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    LOL, ok I love your frustration. You do care, that's clear. The reason you get that kind of reply from me is because you're looking for us to fess up to something that we (or at least I) don't really agree with. Yes, it is possible that you perceive it as such, and no, I don't like making that impression on others, but I'm not about to lie and tell you I agree with you when I don't. I doubt you'd appreciate it if I did.

    And the reason I used the word bitch is because you keep coming back to this, instead of wondering why we do what we do. Most of the posts here have been about understanding each other and exchanging views and finding a way around it. You seem to be focussed on us 'admitting' we're touchy, when I, as well as other ENFPs have already said that it can be perceived as such and that we are no hero's at criticism, with explanations as to why that potentially works that way. Just take a look at Ergo's post.

    As I said, getting us to admit that you're right isn't going to solve the issue. And yes, I do appreciate that you think we're awesome otherwise, nor did I read over it. I happen to have the same view about ENTPs. But that won't get me to admit to what it you want and actually mean it
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  4. #824
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I keep coming back to it because I've not yet heard anything that explains it or gives me any reason to believe it isn't what I think it is. But I don't want to think that way, so I perhaps foolishly, keep hoping that if I describe in enough detail and with enough clarity just what my problem is, then someone might return the favour and answer with similar clarity, what's going on from the other side.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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  5. #825
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I wouldn't mind if the ENFP's would just admit that they're too touchy, the ones who are, so that when they find themselves disagreeing with someone and prone to that defensiveness we talked about before, their first thought could be to self-assess a little bit to catch themselves at it and curb it, rather than to immediately project it onto the other person.

    I mean, I'm pretty well-known for being very laid back and unshockable, unoffendable and - that's why in my outreach work I'm always sent to the front lines to deal with the difficult people. But the ENFP's are always the ones telling me I'm touchy and oversensitive and that I blow up at nothing all the time... other onlookers can be totally unanimous in contradicting that view and saying no, wait, I was calm and polite the whole time and it was the ENFP who started getting defensive for no apparent reason. But then we're just "being mean" and "ganging up"

    I guess this is my main and only real gripe with the ENFP's... aside from this I find them a total pleasure and really good fun to hang with. The only friction seems to come, from my POV, from those times when they seem to genuinely think it's fair and feasible to ask the rest of the world to walk on egg shells and sugar coat everything to death, rather than them just admit they're too sensitive and try to learn to curb it a bit or at least, accept the responsibility for it rather than project or blame others.

    And I'm not saying they do it all the time, but when they do, they REALLY do...
    well here ya go sub...this one will admit that for ya...i can be too touchy or quick to be defensive if i care how how the person i'm dealing with perceives me. it bothers me to feel that my intentions are misunderstood or that someone would think i was being less than considerate or fair in my treatment of them...because just as you feel you have to walk on eggshells with us...i feel that i'm very often doing the same with others...very careful to word things non offensively and very careful to be respectful so when it's pointed out that i failed...it bothers me and it hurts so i probably project my level of importance on to it....but...only if i was trying and i care about the person or particular situation...otherwise honestly...it doesn't phase me a bit.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #826
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    +1 for Lady X

    Also, sub, from what me and Jeno discussed, it's just a basic difference in the style of wording between Fi and Fe that seems to cause the clash, which makes Fi seem defensive to you guys and Fe judgemental to us. Not sure yet how to change that.

    From my experience though, if both parties do the 'eggwalking' in the beginning and get to know each other without too many incidents, afterwards it's no longer needed, as you get a frame of reference of who the other person is.
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  7. #827
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I keep coming back to it because I've not yet heard anything that explains it or gives me any reason to believe it isn't what I think it is. But I don't want to think that way, so I perhaps foolishly, keep hoping that if I describe in enough detail and with enough clarity just what my problem is, then someone might return the favour and answer with similar clarity, what's going on from the other side.
    I think we all accept that ENFPs our too sensitive/touchy to criticism sometimes. It's really not that hard to accept. It seems fair and also seems to apply across types (in different areas perhaps). Many of us have tried to explain why from our perspective. I'm not sure what else you're looking for in terms of an explanation (could you phrase the question better?).

    Perhaps you need the ENFPs in your life to accept that and to explain why THEY do this? I can understand that but can't help you there. Perhaps getting these individuals who exhibit the behavior that you're talking about to admit or at least explain why may be more in order. Most things we say here are going to be based on our own personal experiences and may be only so relevant in explaining the ENFPs in your life.
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  8. #828
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Like I said, in general, these boards make people self aware. But not everyone gets to hear the honest truth about themselves from 15 other types, much less friends that are afraid of dealing with the emotional meltdowns. So they live out their lives thinking that they are golden. (this goes for all types, not just ENFPs).
    Hmmm, honestly I felt pretty self-aware before coming to the boards. But, I know what you mean.

    The part of your post that made me bristle was how presumptuous it sounds and really how presumptuous anyone sounds when they say "objective" or "honest" truth about another person.

    This is just your perception. It's your personal truth, it's valid, but so is the other person's. Unless you meant this is your honest and uncensored truth, which is always the best place to start when communicating with someone else.

    But the idea of any one person thinking they have somehow hit the jackpot on 'objective truth' about another person or human behavior in general - rubs me the wrong way. I also think it's one of the biggest causes of miscommunication. Your truth, even objective and honest, is only part of the larger truth.

    The practical truth or the actual resolution comes somewhere from the meeting of people's different and seemingly conflicting truths.

    PS I do identify as ENFP but I don't consider myself spoken for when other ENFPs speak for "us". So if another ENFP says "yes, we're oversensitive" - oh hell no I do not consider myself included in that. I am a sensitive person I am not over sensitive. I have fought a long and good fight to be where I am today where I can own and defend my emotions and feel I have a right to them, and I will damned if anyone tries to invalidate them or me because it's not how they live.

    Now you guys are getting me all defensive! :rawr: LOL.

    PPS What I've noticed is as soon as you accuse someone of being passive-aggressive or oversensitive or defensive, everything they do or say can be characterized as such to "prove" your point. It's damning!

    I once had a professor in college who ambushed me in class by waiting until the last day of school to say single me out during lecture and accuse me of being "hostile". That crafty bastard! LOL . I knew better than to play into her game by getting angry or raising my voice, so I just smiled and laughed and announced to the class, "I'm not hostile, I just have a different opinion from you and that's okay."

    I generally do not like nor play this game of "Admit that you are over-sensitive and defensive or else you are just proving your are over-sensitive and defensive!"

    This gets more confusing online and specifically on this forum because we don't know each other IRL and we start speaking about templates - and frankly, I just personally do not and cannot identify with a lot of the truly negative stories that are said about ENFPs and it kinda irks me when I feel people are pressing me to admit to being something that I am not, especially when that something is negative and that I find personally counter to how I live my life.

    And I know no one is pressing me personally (online or otherwise right now) to do that, but I even with the general plural "you" = "[most] ENFPs" I'm being addressed.
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  9. #829
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Hmmm, honestly I felt pretty self-aware before coming to the boards. But, I know what you mean.

    The part of your post that made me bristle was how presumptuous it sounds and really how presumptuous anyone sounds when they say "objective" or "honest" truth about another person.

    This is just your perception. It's your personal truth, it's valid, but so is the other person's. Unless you meant this is your honest and uncensored truth, which is always the best place to start when communicating with someone else.

    But the idea of any one person thinking they have somehow hit the jackpot on 'objective truth' about another person or human behavior in general - rubs me the wrong way. I also think it's one of the biggest causes of miscommunication. Your truth, even objective and honest, is only part of the larger truth.

    The practical truth or the actual resolution comes somewhere from the meeting of people's different and seemingly conflicting truths.

    PS I do identify as ENFP but I don't consider myself spoken for when other ENFPs speak for "us". So if another ENFP says "yes, we're oversensitive" - oh hell no I do not consider myself included in that. I am a sensitive person I am not over sensitive. I have fought a long and good fight to be where I am today where I can own and defend my emotions and feel I have a right to them, and I will damned if anyone tries to invalidate them or me because it's not how they live.

    Now you guys are getting me all defensive! :rawr: LOL.

    PPS What I've noticed is as soon as you accuse someone of being passive-aggressive or oversensitive or defensive, everything they do or say can be characterized as such to "prove" your point. It's damning!

    I once had a professor in college who ambushed me in class by waiting until the last day of school to say single me out during lecture and accuse me of being "hostile". That crafty bastard! LOL . I knew better than to play into her game by getting angry or raising my voice, so I just smiled and laughed and announced to the class, "I'm not hostile, I just have a different opinion from you and that's okay."

    I generally do not like nor play this game of "Admit that you are over-sensitive and defensive or else you are just proving your are over-sensitive and defensive!"

    This gets more confusing online and specifically on this forum because we don't know each other IRL and we start speaking about templates - and frankly, I just personally do not and cannot identify with a lot of the truly negative stories that are said about ENFPs and it kinda irks me when I feel people are pressing me to admit to being something that I am not, especially when that something is negative and that I find personally counter to how I live my life.

    And I know no one is pressing me personally (online or otherwise right now) to do that, but I even with the general plural "you" = "[most] ENFPs" I'm being addressed.
    CzeCze, I never said that I had the objective truth, only the honest truth. My being able to speak openly and honestly. I never once claimed to know someone inside and out. So, I don't really need that lecture. But thanks for the reminder. Please make sure to remind me of the same fact when I write extremely positive things about all the other types, which I often do. No one seems offended by those generalizations.

    I mentioned earlier, several times, that if this doesn't apply to you, then just disregard it. Some people have said that it does apply to them or to those they know well. I've also mentioned several times that stereotyping exists as the very nature of this typology forum.

    I've also made it very clear that I am speaking from my own personal experiences. I've never said that someone cannot experience their own emotions. Have you honestly read what we all have written? I've never tried to stop anyone from feeling what they feel. I can, however, exercise my right not to deal with behavior that I feel may be toxic to me. That is my right.

    If all you got out of this whole dialogue, plus the conversation I had with Amargith on our walls which was also mentioned in this thread for further clarification, is that I'm presumptuous, then so be it. I'm presumptuous then.

    I've never asked anyone to admit anything, but I do find it curious that you specify that you don't want to admit anything that is negative.

    I'm wondering if this entire rant is directed at me, or the plural "you" because this also seems quite presumptuous and not exactly the "objective truth", especially if you are speaking about me personally:

    "PPS What I've noticed is as soon as you accuse someone of being passive-aggressive or oversensitive or defensive, everything they do or say can be characterized as such to "prove" your point. It's damning!"


    Once again:

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Ok, I'm in over my head in here. It's fine. Just chalk this up to a disgruntled ENTP and nevermind anything that I've said. Have a great day, guys!

  10. #830
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    jeno, i think she was more reacting to substitutes post, as I did, than to your posts. Maybe we should try to keep the porcupine-reflex to a minimum though, or we'll never get to the bottom of this. We know by now already that we rub each other the wrong way. Perhaps we can try giving each other the benefit of the doubt?

    Fwiw, I do agree with Cze Cze's sentiments, but I fear that our different communication styles might've gotten in the way
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