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  1. #741
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    yeah that's kinda what I meant - that whether you say 'I feel' or give concrete examples, or however you put it, essentially what you're doing is bringing up a problem you have with another person which, obviously, at least initially, you would consider to be at least partly their fault. So I'm just wondering how you could consider it possible that someone could feel hurt by something you've done or said, and yet still somehow raise the issue with you without in any way suggesting any fault on your part.

    That's the first part, and secondly, that even if that IS achieved, verbally at least, it's of little consequence if the other person still just interprets you wrongly anyway because of a tendency towards taking things personally and being overly defensive.

    I just don't get how you're supposed to say to someone "I'm upset because when X happened you said Y" - giving concrete example there and talking in terms of "I feel", WITHOUT it implicitly being a criticism, and implying blame on the other person's part.
    Sub -- you're right, it is a form of criticism. We are pointing to what should be criticized and how not questioning the criticism itself. My goal is a practical one -- how to better reach the ENFP in question.

    Amargith's rules and what I suggested help you bring it up better with the ENFP, pointing to the behavior versus the personality and what they consider core values. ENTPs don't define themselves as people persons do they? We define ourselves as idea and people persons. We do harbor the self-image (sometime accurately and sometimes less so) that we understand people well and that we are empathetic and egalitarian - protective of others rights too. This is why criticism in the interpersonal realm is more hurtful to us. It would be like attacking your core competency in your field. Doesn't mean that it can't or shouldn't be done. When presented in the way we suggest, it is received better because we can distinguish the concrete examples as something we can change. We have power over that.

    The best, unfortunately religious metaphor I can think of is that of the sinner versus the sin. We prefer that the sin be pointed out. Wouldn't you prefer that someone pointed out a particular competency related weakness versus calling you incompetent? You can correct the particular problem and it is easier to accept. I hope this helps.

  2. #742
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Actually, I'd be interested in hearing your POV, as to why NJs are so quick to make up their mind about people. Coz it's something I don't really dare to do, so it would be intriguing to hear how you guys go about that.
    That's the point. It's not "quick." It only seems that way to Ps who like to vacillate forever.

  3. #743
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    So allow us a glimpse into how NFJs go about it, and let's compare notes
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  4. #744
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Ps say that about me. But that is from their perspective. Call me an NJ


    Oh please. You like to throw around the term "stereotyping" a lot. You might want to check the name of the website you are on.

    You must think I've gleaned that perspective only from your posts in this thread. Wrong. And I understand what it means to play devil's advocate. I also know what it means to take an affront on your type as an affront on yourself. We're all guilty of it, to an extent.

    Regardless, I still like you and I've learned much from my conversations with you. Don't believe if I point out negative qualities, that is all I can see.

    Sytpg
    lol, this is what I'm talking about. No need for disclaimers of that kind. I'm not taking this personally. A forum is not always a place to make oneself perfectly understood I guess.

    And that is why I throw the term "stereotyping" a lot. It seems if I don't, my posts fail to be regarded as coming from a place of detachment. It seems if I don't, you feel the need to reassure me that you're not attacking me. I don't get if that is fueled by a perceived idea of how ENFPs should be dealt with or something. Maybe it's not. Sorry if that is the case.

    Listen, I'm not here to protect the honor of my fellow ENFPs brethren or anything. Depending on the circumstances, you'd see me doing the same for any other type. I just happen to be an ENFP and obviously take active interest in the threads that talk about my type more so than others.

    Since you've mentioned that you haven't gleaned that perspective only from my posts in this thread alone...you've now made me interested in knowing exactly what you're talking about. Maybe if you address that last paragraph of my last post, you'll gain further insight into the mind of an ENFP :P. Don't want to put you on the spot or anything but pray clarify at some point :P I am trying to understand and not being defensive. I hope that is clear.

  5. #745
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    So allow us a glimpse into how NFJs go about it, and let's compare notes
    This thread isn't about NFJs. Maybe start a new one and I'll post in it. I don't want to derail this thread.

  6. #746
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I just feel that if we explain where we come from, we have a better way of understanding each other and bridging the gap. Ironically, that might actually be perceived as being defensive and make things even more complicated. In reality, it's just my frustration at the misunderstanding and my inability to solve it that on occasion is showing
    Very well put. This is the impression I get. If one could talk face to face it would be a lot simpler and clearer.

  7. #747
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    I have a hard time giving up on discussing something I want to understand. It definitely makes it hard with some types who don't really want to discuss anything. There are situations I just need to understand and when I do I can let them go, until that point I can not. Not being able to understand what happened or motivations can be a big problem for me.

    This is normally just in serious relationships (friendships or romance) and the relationship can be hindered if I can't understand the issue I need to understand. This can make me appear repetitive and nit picky, if you don't understand the underlying motivation.

  8. #748
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Random q: what the heck is up with like 9 linebacks to Facebook for this thread?

  9. #749
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    ENTPs don't define themselves as people persons do they? .
    Kiersey describes ENTPs as "keen judges of the pragmatics of both social and technological organization, and often become expert at improving relationships between means and ends".

    Also "And they are skilled at engineering human relationships and human systems, quickly grasping the politics of institutions and always aiming to understand people within the system rather than to judge them."

    But to further your point about separating the sinner from the sin, it's virtually impossible to say something about a personal characteristic that isn't personal. I know no way around that.

    That being said, to all the dissenters: we all have our "flaws" and "faults", all of us. The fact that we notice it and point it out when asked (see thread title) is not indicative of judgment. Merely observation. If it doesn't apply to any of you specifically, simply disregard it.

    I certainly don't go around criticising my ENFP friends, I am merely venting with you guys about patterns I have noticed, and that others have noticed as well. Not every ENFP (or person) is evolved enough to follow the "rules" and there are more than a fair share that react with defense at any perceived slight, regardless of how true it is.

  10. #750
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    ENTPs don't define themselves as people persons do they?
    If I was any more of a people person, I'd have to hire me a PR dude/ette.

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