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  1. #711
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Well, that's one of my biggest personal learning goal, being introspective about own feelings, rather than translating it through Ti first, so I have my own battles with Fi (the opposite of you guys, not enough!).

    But, if I could compare your Fi to my Ti (although, by the very nature of Fi versus Ti means the latter allows readier detachment)...but, say, if I see that my Ti-ing in a situation is hindering, I know I consciously recognize in myself, I'm being too narrow/precise with the step by step details of A to Z, which is making me bitchy, etc., and then I know I consciously choose to keep going that route (because whatever evaluation of mine has concluded it's worth more than not using Ti), or, defer to other, like my tertiary gets jumped up, Fe.

    Maybe this is where you need to really bring your Te out of the 'childlike' (not as readily within your control) state, so that, in such situations, it can take over the Fi?

    Not silence the Fi, just allow Te to be more prominent so it messes with some of the noise of Fi, making it less readable, hence, reliable, thus, 'tricking' yourself to not put as much weight on the Fi?

    Meh...dunno if that made sense.
    I think I understand what you are saying. Yes, the ability to use thinking successfully is a huge part of being able to do this. I'm just now getting familiar with the cognitive functions so I mix them up a lot (this emerged in our PMs as well) -- I don't always get the difference between the introverted and extroverted functions. Applied to feeling, this seems obvious to me. For thinking, how would using Ti and Te differ in this case?

    I almost wish we could have this conversation in person and that beer was involved. I would have enjoyed having this conversation in person. Also, Kristen Wiig on SNL doing her Bjork impression is really distracting me right now.

  2. #712
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    (I'm watching "Most Haunted", roomie pick of TV show as I've had remote control for most of the day...and haven't moved from the couch really all day, writing [trying, key word] my manuscript...ah, beer would have been just perfect)

  3. #713
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Que:rus, I think that that is actually what happens when our Fi doesn't get triggered. We're able to understand at that point that someone has a a problem with a specific situation, and hopefully they explained us why, therefore we skip right to Te and go: how can I change this around and give us both what we want.

    In order to do this when feedback is given in a way that does anger Fi, we need a minute to cool off and step back. Oddly, I find I can do this almost instantly with emotions that overwhelm Fi but where I'm alone. For instance, if I'm overwhelmed by jealousy, I'm so used to deal with that by now that that in most cases it takes me not even a second to disarm it. Why? Coz I don't need to talk to anyone else or explain it to anyone. There is no timepressure in which to respond to another person. And if it doesn't work, nobody will notice, as I'll withdraw from interaction till I've got it taken care of, which means that you don't have to sort it out within a certain timeframe. So detaching is not that hard, and you become quite skilled at.

    I guess the real challenge for us is to do this with defensiveness as well. Catch it as it comes in, and before it actually does damage, immediately classify as to where it comes from, why it's there and see what we can do with it. Not that easy
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  4. #714
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Ah, I prefer 'cookie' feedback myself.

    Actually, your feedback seems like pretty good, non-ENFP only advice. Thanks for sharing.
    I'm glad you find it useful. I got it an a course specifically geared towards consultants dealing with clients, but it's pretty much applicable in all human interaction, I find. It's not as easy as it looks to adhere to it, but the difference in response you get when you do put in the effort is well worth it, ime.


    @ the cookie variant
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  5. #715
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I agree that Amargith's feedback rules are a good general guide for dealing with pretty much any type of person...

    What do you do though, when you are making a conscious effort to go by those rules, particularly the one about not saying "you do this" but rather "I feel that...", but the person you're talking to just puts their own subtitles under whatever you say? As in, you say "I feel that it's very difficult to disagree with you" and they, being naturally defensive the minute they get a whiff of criticism, hear that as "you're an asshole"?

    Or when you say "I feel very frustrated and a little hurt, and like I have no power over what we do or where we go when you're around" and they read that as "you're too bossy and pushy and never let me have a say in what we do"?

    Because really, you can say "I feel" as much as you like, but that's what it amounts to isn't it? If it's "I feel unhappy and it's related to the way you and I interact" then inherently it is criticism of their behaviour, isn't it? And, right enough, you're not necessarily saying that you believe this makes them a bad person, just perhaps mistaken over something or having a blind spot about something. But I've very often gone out of my way to say to an ENFP that I'm quite aware that I could simply have misperceived them and that I'm just telling them how I feel so that they can tell me if I've just got them wrong or whatever, and they STILL take it super personally and blow up and get super defensive.
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  6. #716
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I agree that Amargith's feedback rules are a good general guide for dealing with pretty much any type of person...

    What do you do though, when you are making a conscious effort to go by those rules, particularly the one about not saying "you do this" but rather "I feel that...", but the person you're talking to just puts their own subtitles under whatever you say? As in, you say "I feel that it's very difficult to disagree with you" and they, being naturally defensive the minute they get a whiff of criticism, hear that as "you're an asshole"?

    Or when you say "I feel very frustrated and a little hurt, and like I have no power over what we do or where we go when you're around" and they read that as "you're too bossy and pushy and never let me have a say in what we do"?

    Because really, you can say "I feel" as much as you like, but that's what it amounts to isn't it? If it's "I feel unhappy and it's related to the way you and I interact" then inherently it is criticism of their behaviour, isn't it? And, right enough, you're not necessarily saying that you believe this makes them a bad person, just perhaps mistaken over something or having a blind spot about something. But I've very often gone out of my way to say to an ENFP that I'm quite aware that I could simply have misperceived them and that I'm just telling them how I feel so that they can tell me if I've just got them wrong or whatever, and they STILL take it super personally and blow up and get super defensive.
    Okay, I'm not trying to be a jerk here or picky, but if that is not what you mean by that, what do you mean exactly? Perhaps being a bit more precise in your language can help? Again, not trying to be an asshole here, but I do not know what else one *could* read from that???
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  7. #717
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post

    What do you do though, when you are making a conscious effort to go by those rules, particularly the one about not saying "you do this" but rather "I feel that...", but the person you're talking to just puts their own subtitles under whatever you say? As in, you say "I feel that it's very difficult to disagree with you" and they, being naturally defensive the minute they get a whiff of criticism, hear that as "you're an asshole"?

    Or when you say "I feel very frustrated and a little hurt, and like I have no power over what we do or where we go when you're around" and they read that as "you're too bossy and pushy and never let me have a say in what we do"?

    Because really, you can say "I feel" as much as you like, but that's what it amounts to isn't it? If it's "I feel unhappy and it's related to the way you and I interact" then inherently it is criticism of their behaviour, isn't it? And, right enough, you're not necessarily saying that you believe this makes them a bad person, just perhaps mistaken over something or having a blind spot about something. But I've very often gone out of my way to say to an ENFP that I'm quite aware that I could simply have misperceived them and that I'm just telling them how I feel so that they can tell me if I've just got them wrong or whatever, and they STILL take it super personally and blow up and get super defensive.
    I'm not sure if you wrote with the aim of getting ENFP advice or more with the goal of continuing the discussion and providing those instances as examples. I'll assume the former and say below:

    1. It would probably work better if you actually provided a concrete example first and made it about one or two concrete events that trigger that feeling in you instead of just the blanket feeling -- 'I feel like I don't have control over what we do'. I think providing the concrete example first and following it up with the feeling helps. Example: 'You continuing to drive when I really wanted to go back as did the other people in the car made me feel like....' would help and not make it just about a personality flaw, even if it may be one in this case, an inability to incorporate others' opinions/preferences.
    2. Bring things up soon after they happen. Waiting makes ENFPs think you are harboring resentment and makes us more likely to take things personally.
    3. Even if the person takes things badly at that time, perhaps bring it up later and ask if they'd like to continue the discussion. Having some time to think over things, they would probably be more inclined to discuss things calmly and rationally.

    If you've done all of the above and still find poor resolution, I really think your ENFP needs to do their own work. They have to think it's important to find resolution with you too and recognize their own problem areas. There's not much else you can do without them having taken that step.

  8. #718
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    this is really interesting to me because i've never really analyzed it before but yeah...if it feels like a big deal...approached with anger or too much emotion of any kind it makes it seem like some big issue which perhaps makes us take it more personally...i don't know what that is or why but i can even take not nice blunt better if it seems to be not a big deal....what the hell is that? i don't know.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  9. #719
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Sheesh. And they say INFJs are too much work.

  10. #720
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Sheesh. And they say INFJs are too much work.
    yeah...it sounds like it from these last few pages but really not...not at all. i think most of us are super chill and easy to get a long with and our communication skills help us resolve most issues easily. it's really not a big deal...the things i'm talking about are mostly about petty house chores so...i guess it just depends on if you think those issues are a big deal or not....i don't.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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