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  1. #701
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Qre:us, you're killing me.
    Softly, m'dear. Oh, so, softly...

  2. #702
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    If you want an ENFP to listen to your critiscism, you might wanna consider using the proper feedback rules:

    1) Timing is everything
    2) Don't use 'YOU did this or this' but 'that made me feel/think this and this and this and affected me that way'
    3) allow time to process and time for a response
    4) Take response on board, and do not dismiss it as an excuse
    5) Find compromise/solution together
    (this is actually from my 'human interaction' course, believe it or not. I'm willing to post the 'how to receive feedback properly' rules as well if anyone cares)
    I'll go with 1 but will say that it applies across all types. Criticism when ANY type is stressed means they will be less equipped to handle it.
    I don't agree with 2 - I am okay with bluntess because there is less space for misinterpretation. Adding the feeling component does bring out the empathy though which quickly gets me to understand the other person's perspective better.
    3 is the most important. Personally, I need time to detach to be able to let what's been said sink in and think through it logically and think about what I can do to better the situation (apologize and alter behavior/acknowledge and maintain status quo). Without that, the process will just be less productive for everyone.
    4 also seems like it would be useful for most types partcularly Fs (acknowledging reaction in the form, "I can see you're upset"? ). Seems okay although I am likely to respond with, no I'm not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Here's another question, how do you think ENFPs can tackle getting better at not taking criticisms personally?
    Detach, detach, detach. For this, we need time and familiarity with/trust in the criticizer. Maybe ENTPs can give us tips on how to detach since it is your specialty

  3. #703
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Ok, translated from my course (this is applicable to all types of people btw):

    Giving feedback (I added it back in as I saw I missed some steps ):

    * time your feedback
    * describe the behavior concretely so you do not attack the person itself
    * describe why it is a problem for you, and what effect it has on you
    * Use 'I' instead of 'You' (for instance :YOU always do that vs I feel that..)
    * Allow space for a reaction
    * Describe your wish
    * Explore the options/solutions together


    Receiving feedback (even when it wasn't properly formulated):

    * Listen actively to what the other person says
    * Ask them to elaborate or explain
    * Show appreciation even if you disagree
    * describe what you're agreeing with
    * describe what you're not agreeing with
    * explore possible solutions together.


    Also recommended when giving someone feedback is what is referred to as the 'Sandwich Feedback':

    (this is where you wedge a potentially negative comment between two positive comments):

    * What I think you did that was great specifically
    * AND what I think you could potentially improve on (not BUT!!!)
    * In general, I think... (something positive)

    Enjoy
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  4. #704
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Detach, detach, detach. For this, we need time and familiarity with/trust in the criticizer. Maybe ENTPs can give us tips on how to detach since it is your specialty
    You know how tails of some lizards detaches for them to make a sweet getaway? A protective evolutionary feature. Think of it in terms of that, aids in, (1) protection, (2) get-away, (3) it'll always grow back.


    Fi is quite like a lizard's tail, you know.

  5. #705
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Also recommended when giving someone feedback is what is referred to as the 'Sandwich Feedback':
    Ah, I prefer 'cookie' feedback myself.

    Actually, your feedback seems like pretty good, non-ENFP only advice. Thanks for sharing.

  6. #706
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    You know how tails of some lizards detaches for them to make a sweet getaway? A protective evolutionary feature. Think of it in terms of that, aids in, (1) protection, (2) get-away, (3) it'll always grow back.


    Fi is quite like a lizard's tail, you know.
    Well put and actually really is a great metaphor for how NTs must see Fi. More of a liability than a source of strength during crisis.

    The problem is that our perspective is different. Fi is more integral to our being and functioning than for NTs - sort of like sight. I've learned though, in my own experience, to treat it more like a pair of glasses (still essential to seeing) but Fi is not the only pair available. You need shades for bright sunshine. Similarly for interpersonal crises, putting regular glasses aside and putting Ti goggles (the word makes me giggle) on could mean better vision.

    Still missing is a step - how. We both acknowledge the value of detachment even though we perceive Fi differently. The how is important. For me, I'll repeat to myself the things that may come naturally to NTs. Amargith, this is related to the points you listed as well. When people around us are not aware of how to best approach us, it doesn't mean that what they're saying is not valid and could be quite useful to us in the long run. So, a way around the other person's lack of using the best conditions is to repeat to self -- "It's not about me, it's probably about something I do and can change". If I say it to myself, I am actually far more likely to believe it. It's my Ti switch. It took practice but it works quite well now. Maybe it's easier because I don't score high at all on F on every test I've ever taken.

  7. #707
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    good point girlie yeah.

    is it just me or does that winky smiliey seem a bit swarmy? i'm not sure i like it.

    wait...is swarmy the word i mean...omg. nevermind!
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  8. #708
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    wait...is swarmy the word i mean...omg. nevermind!


    smarmy

    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Still missing is a step - how.
    The analogy answers this...there is no how. If you recognize when it hinders/threatens rather than heals/helps, you will let it go. No how. Just survival. The lizard doesn't ask how, nor mourns, because something else triumps it...that of the urgency of the situation where the tail is a hindrance, a trap.



    "It's not about me, it's probably about something I do and can change".
    Actually, I'd argue, this is still quite about self (if we mean that to be somewhat of a reflection of Fi). As an Fe user, my interpretation would be, "We are not the same, why did they arrive where they did, given me as possible triggers? And why did I arrive where I did, given their part to play as possible triggers? Where was OUR disconnect?"

  9. #709
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    smarmy
    Lady X - You couldn't be smarmy if you tried (I mean that in a good way).


    The analogy answers this...there is no how. If you recognize when it hinders/threatens rather than heals/helps, you will let it go. No how. Just survival. The lizard doesn't ask how, nor mourns, because something else triumps it...that of the urgency of the situation where the tail is a hindrance, a trap.
    Yes, but even recognizing that the Fi is hurting/hindering assumes detachment. It comes so easily to you, I don't think you realize quite how difficult it is for us as this is not a natural way of being. There is a how involved in stepping back to even see that the feelings are getting in the way.

    Actually, I'd argue, this is still quite about self (if we mean that to be somewhat of a reflection of Fi). As an Fe user, my interpretation would be, "We are not the same, why did they arrive where they did, given me as possible triggers? And why did I arrive where I did, given their part to play as possible triggers? Where was OUR disconnect?"
    I agree. It is about self . My words were just not quite as precise as I would have liked them to be. By no means did I want to imply absolving self of responsibility as part of the how of detachment. It was more about not letting the criticism take over your identity. People get defensive when they see their sense of self threatened. A single piece of criticism should not threaten the whole sense of self. There is a way of detaching one's sense of self and yet seeing the criticism/point raised (not always criticism) as addressing a part of who I am and what I do and not the whole.

    It is always about OUR disconnect. I am not recommending shying away from taking responsibility while also acknowledging that it is about TWO people and both their behaviors. I can still only understand my own best. What's also helped in the past is the promise of a continuing discussion. Going away, detaching, thinking through things in that mode and then coming back to listen and learn again about the other person's perspective is very useful.

  10. #710
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Yes, but even recognizing that the Fi is hurting/hindering assumes detachment. It comes so easily to you, I don't think you realize quite how difficult it is to get there for those of us who don't find it natural. There is a how involved in stepping back to even see that the feelings are getting in the way.
    Well, that's one of my biggest personal learning goal, being introspective about own feelings, rather than translating it through Ti first, so I have my own battles with Fi (the opposite of you guys, not enough!).

    But, if I could compare your Fi to my Ti (although, by the very nature of Fi versus Ti means the latter allows readier detachment)...but, say, if I see that my Ti-ing in a situation is hindering, I know I consciously recognize in myself, I'm being too narrow/precise with the step by step details of A to Z, which is making me bitchy, etc., and then I know I consciously choose to keep going that route (because whatever evaluation of mine has concluded it's worth more than not using Ti), or, defer to other, like my tertiary gets jumped up, Fe.

    Maybe this is where you need to really bring your Te out of the 'childlike' (not as readily within your control) state, so that, in such situations, it can take over the Fi?

    Not silence the Fi, just allow Te to be more prominent so it messes with some of the noise of Fi, making it less readable, hence, reliable, thus, 'tricking' yourself to not put as much weight on the Fi?

    Meh...dunno if that made sense.

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