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  1. #671
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    yeah that all sounds good Amargith, but it still seems to be following that general trend of "I never do wrong, and if I do, then it's justified and probably your fault for not satisfying my unspoken and highly unique rules of conduct in the first place, and I'm not sorry and never will be, so balls to you whether you're upset or not!"

    Like you're actually doing the person a favour and honour to listen to them, you know, as if you're a king or queen with a peasant begging to get your pig back that his cook commandeered the day before. He'll listen to you, possibly, if you satisfy all the required court etiquette that you've no way of having learned before, but there's no guarantee that he'll admit it was wrong to take your pig or give it back, he probably has a charter that says it's actually his divine and royal right to have any pig he wants so you've no right to even feel aggrieved, and you should feel honoured that he even listened in the first place, now go away and no, there is no right of appeal!



    (btw one of the distinguishing flaws of the ENFP that I was trying to express I've experienced was a rather idealized self-image, so even when they do say "I always listen to people" or "I always let people finish before I speak" or whatever, the reality very often doesn't match up to how they perceive themselves.)

    It's interesting that there's still no acknowledgement there of any benefits to be gained by being rather more flexible with approaching others, or accommodating others' approaches - it's pretty much "my way or the highway" isn't it?

    Heheh, new nickname for the ENFP: The Aristocrat!
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  2. #672
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Not really
    As stated, I'll gladly listen, and if you can give me a reason that in fact rings true for me, I'll be the first to appologize and try to change it. But you are in fact requesting something from me. You're asking me to fall in line...on your authority. That's not good enough, no. It doesn't make me royalty, it makes me your equal. If I were to in fact be royalty, I'd be demanding you pander to my 'corrections' in you.

    I live by the rule 'harm none'. That unfortunately isn't always possible, but I go out of my way not to harm people and appologize when I do. Other than that, rules are indeed something I often don't see a use for. If you do, that's great for you, but don't force me to follow them. And if that bothers you, then we can just stay clear of each other, and give each other the space to each live our own way. If that's not possible, a compromise can be reached, which I'm all for. But putting me on the defensive is indeed not the best way to get there. I'll still strive for that compromise though, despite feeling defensive.
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  3. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Not really
    As stated, I'll gladly listen, and if you can give me a reason that in fact rings true for me, I'll be the first to appologize and try to change it. But you are in fact requesting something from me. You're asking me to fall in line...on your authority.
    No... that's actually not what people are asking most of the time. They're just asking that you actually listen and consider their feelings, and consider adapting your behaviour so as to be less insensitive. They're asking for you to be open to compromise and often implicitly saying that they're open to adapting their behaviour to make your life easier so why can't you meet them half way?

    Jeez, and I thought ENTP's were supposed to be the ones who can't compromise!

    ...and it's all very well saying "harm none" etc, but are you quite sure that you're able to accurately perceive exactly what harms people within the patterns of your own behaviour, so much so that you're able to confidently dismiss anything they say to you that doesn't immediately "ring true"? Cos if you were able to do that, you'd have Fe as your highest function I reckon!!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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  4. #674
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I just said I would gladly do so. If people tell me how I am in fact impacting them with my behavior, I'll try my best to avoid that impact when I'm around them. I don't see how I'm not compromising. In fact, I'm often told to stop accomodating others so much. But yes, it can depend on how it is formulated. If you outright accuse me/condemn my behavior, I'm less inclined to do this, though I'll still strive for compromise. See also my last comment in the other post: misunderstandings seem to happen on this a lot.
    Also, if in fact you make a good point (aka for instance, you're harming someone), then I'll be the first to fall in line, as I want harmony as much NFJs do. And what is often perceived as 'making excuses', is most of the time just an explanation given so you can see why I acted the way I did, though I understand your POV now and will adapt accordingly.

    My Fe tests quite high actually, though it drains me to use it. I don't dismiss what they said completely. I'll keep it in mind, even if it doesn't ring true to me when I'm around them, coz clearly, it is important to them.
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  5. #675
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    yeah that all sounds good Amargith, but it still seems to be following that general trend of "I never do wrong, and if I do, then it's justified and probably your fault for not satisfying my unspoken and highly unique rules of conduct in the first place, and I'm not sorry and never will be, so balls to you whether you're upset or not!"

    Like you're actually doing the person a favour and honour to listen to them, you know, as if you're a king or queen with a peasant begging to get your pig back that his cook commandeered the day before. He'll listen to you, possibly, if you satisfy all the required court etiquette that you've no way of having learned before, but there's no guarantee that he'll admit it was wrong to take your pig or give it back, he probably has a charter that says it's actually his divine and royal right to have any pig he wants so you've no right to even feel aggrieved, and you should feel honoured that he even listened in the first place, now go away and no, there is no right of appeal!



    (btw one of the distinguishing flaws of the ENFP that I was trying to express I've experienced was a rather idealized self-image, so even when they do say "I always listen to people" or "I always let people finish before I speak" or whatever, the reality very often doesn't match up to how they perceive themselves.)

    It's interesting that there's still no acknowledgement there of any benefits to be gained by being rather more flexible with approaching others, or accommodating others' approaches - it's pretty much "my way or the highway" isn't it?

    Heheh, new nickname for the ENFP: The Aristocrat!


    so funny...i agreed with most of amargiths post and then to see this perspective is hilarious!

    and damn...it's kinda true. i just don't think we like people thinking they have some right to modify our behavior...because really who the hell are you! haha...that's funny...not sayin it's right or wrong but it's sure as hell funny.

    i think it just comes from that live and let live mentality...most of the issues i have with people are about them trying to tell me how to be...not the other way around...not something i do...so...i guess i can't relate a whole lot to the mentality of someone who does.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #676
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    +1

    You're right, Lady X, that's just it. My motto usually is: plz don't ask me to change who I am, but feel free to make suggestions, and I'll gladly consider them

    And ime, it seems to be a great head ache to those that do feel there are social rules to be followed by everyone. And I do feel guilty about giving them that head ache, but I sometimes feel like they're asking me to just be a different person coz it's more convenient. So who's right? I dunno

    Do you by any chance agree with the feedbackrules I posted? That that's the best way to get an ENFP to listen to you?


    Ps: Can't say I object to the nickname Aristocrat...sounds good to me
    Though I personally think maybe 'Outlaw' would be a more accurate choice
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  7. #677
    I drink your milkshake. Thessaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    hmm...i haven't caught up but...just as response to this. who are you to be correcting enfps anyway...do we walk around trying to correct you? i doubt it...i sure as hell don't do that so if we don't seem to love criticism or being corrected it has a lot to do with personal rights ya know...like you do what you want and i'll do what i want...ya know...people need to stop expecting others to follow their rules and they won't be disappointed.
    Well I have my ex roommate in mind so my criticisms were related to our living situation like keeping things tidy and being quiet at reasonable hours. I'm not sure what you mean by personal rights? I'm not one to maliciously criticize someone or even criticizing in general, especially on a personal level. I'm an INFP...we don't do confrontation lol. If I correct someone it's either because I've been solicited for said critique or because it's necessary for a proper healthy relationship - personal or work.

  8. #678
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    I agree with Jaye. It's bizarre but a lot of the criticisms against ENFPs in this thread are experiences I have had personally with INFPs. I think this might be due to varying levels of Fi use. I know I am more comfortable using Te in extroverted scenarios than Fi.
    :yim_rolling_on_the_

    That's what I was saying.

    Tiny Army's quote ^^ is as far as I got reading the responses before wooziness reminded me I was about to start cooking and I'm hungry (let's hear it for 'P's!)

    But this thread is finally getting juicy.

    :placeholder:
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  9. #679
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You're right, Lady X, that's just it. My motto usually is: plz don't ask me to change who I am, but feel free to make suggestions, and I'll gladly consider them
    I don't know about all that, but when I say I have to get off the phone (like in my previous example) please just let me get off the bleeping phone or don't get upset when I curse you out or hang up on you. After that whole exchange, don't make it about you being mad at me for getting upset and never acknowledging your part until I give you a satisfying reason on why I had to go in the first place. Because it's none of your business why I had to go. And it's entirely your own fault you got hung up on. That's all I'm saying... It's no bigger than that, really. Other than that, we're fine.

  10. #680
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I don't know about all that, but when I say I have to get off the phone (like in my previous example) please just let me get off the bleeping phone or don't get upset when I curse you out or hang up on you. After that whole exchange, don't make it about you being mad at me for getting upset and never acknowledging your part until I give you a satisfying reason on why I had to go in the first place. Because it's none of your business why I had to go. And it's entirely your own fault you got hung up on. That's all I'm saying... It's no bigger than that, really. Other than that, we're fine.
    LOL, completely agree with you. I too have trouble hanging up, as I love to chat. I have no problem with someone telling me bluntly that it's been fun but they need to run. Sounds like insecurity/abandonment issues to me, really, but I could be wrong.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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