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  1. #661
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    true, but it's not always actual real rights or generally held rights, so much as things you personally believe are your rights or should be your rights. see the distinction?

    Say for example, not having a violent crime committed against you - that's an actual, real and generally held right that nobody could reasonably dispute against.

    But Fi can also perceive lots things as "inalienable rights" that are actually more to do with their personal preferences and unique individual values. These would be those times when you say things like "But I have a RIGHT to know!" in a very rhetorical way, as if to say that nobody would dispute that or see things differently, when in fact they might well do so.

    What I said earlier about INFP's vs ENFP's was referring to this sort of thing, that I get a general impression that INFP's are more able to discern and be aware of when it's an actual right that's been violated, and therefore worth getting het up about and contesting, and when it's a perceived right that's been violated, one that it doesn't go without saying that everyone would automatically know is important or a value to you, and so should be addressed more cautiously and with more flexibility.

    (just speculating again)
    you're right...never meant to imply otherwise...they are self appointed rights yeah. i have the right to be treated a certain way...i have the right to know certain things about someone i'm in a relationship with. ...but...as far as friends go...i would never feel i had the right to know everything about their life.

    but yeah...i guess it depends on what we decide those rights are...and some people may have screwed up ideas about what they should be...which may result in poor relationships with people...not me though...i'm one of the cool ones.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  2. #662
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyJaye View Post
    You tell them. They're not the boss of you.


    We can hear you!

  3. #663
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    What I said earlier about INFP's vs ENFP's was referring to this sort of thing, that I get a general impression that INFP's are more able to discern and be aware of when it's an actual right that's been violated, and therefore worth getting het up about and contesting, and when it's a perceived right that's been violated, one that it doesn't go without saying that everyone would automatically know is important or a value to you, and so should be addressed more cautiously and with more flexibility.
    To be fair, some INFPs have this issue too. When I was younger, it was often a face-off between my father (INFP) and brother (ENFP) over whose values and rights were more "correct."

  4. #664
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Regardless of the criticisms of ENFPs I've offered in this thread, I love the mature, confident ones.


    The others can stay the hell away, but mature ENFPs are a joy to be around.



  5. #665
    Scream down the boulevard LadyJaye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    We can hear you!
    That's alright. You're not the boss of me either. So it works out.

  6. #666
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyJaye View Post
    That's alright. You're not the boss of me either. So it works out.


  7. #667
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyJaye View Post
    That's alright. You're not the boss of me either. So it works out.
    You tell her, wifey!

  8. #668
    Scream down the boulevard LadyJaye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    Regardless of the criticisms of ENFPs I've offered in this thread, I love the mature, confident ones.


    The others can stay the hell away, but mature ENFPs are a joy to be around.


    Perhaps we could erect some sort of electric fence...

    Truthfully, I enjoy the company of any mature type. Secure people are always a joy to be around.

  9. #669
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    you're right...never meant to imply otherwise...they are self appointed rights yeah. i have the right to be treated a certain way...i have the right to know certain things about someone i'm in a relationship with. ...but...as far as friends go...i would never feel i had the right to know everything about their life.

    but yeah...i guess it depends on what we decide those rights are...and some people may have screwed up ideas about what they should be...which may result in poor relationships with people...not me though...i'm one of the cool ones.
    I'm sure you are!

    I dunno tho if it's really a case of those rights being screwed up, so much as the Fi person just not acknowledging the self-appointed nature of them, which leads to trouble. You know, they might think it goes without saying, when in fact, it does need to be said and pointed out that you have this particular expectation because not everyone does, so the person you're dealing with now might well go against it and upset you without having any way of knowing it or avoiding it.

    It might also cause problems if you then ascribe that sense of entitlement to that particular thing to other people, who don't see that as a right or have it as an expectation or even desire, yet you could well be avoiding the kind of behaviour that they would actually appreciate because you assume that, because if someone was that way with you, you'd be upset, therefore they must be also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    To be fair, some INFPs have this issue too. When I was younger, it was often a face-off between my father (INFP) and brother (ENFP) over whose values and rights were more "correct."
    I guess I'm lucky, I've only ever known the most awesome of INFP's. There are a couple pain in the ass ones here I guess, but there are some truly awesome ones like Carebear and runvardh and Prplchknz, I'd marry them all if I could
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #670
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Wow..this thread suddenly blew up. Ok, fwiw, I'll add this:

    If you want an ENFP to listen to your critiscism, you might wanna consider using the proper feedback rules:

    1) Timing is everything
    2) Don't use 'YOU did this or this' but 'that made me feel/think this and this and this and affected me that way'
    3) allow time to process and time for a response
    4) Take response on board, and do not dismiss it as an excuse
    5) Find compromise/solution together
    (this is actually from my 'human interaction' course, believe it or not. I'm willing to post the 'how to receive feedback properly' rules as well if anyone cares)

    Also, realize that if you give critiscism to an ENFP, most of us need time to digest the comment. Trust me, we will take it on board. We're hardwired to do so. But if you push and demand an immediate 'oh you're right' you're bound to get a defensive reaction. And the most common one is: who the hell are you to judge me! And frankly..who the hell are you, no offense. I don't tell you how to live your life either, nor do I demand that you're perfect and obsessively get rid of your bad traits. It's who you are, and it makes you unique. Also, you're likely far from perfect yourself, so it's kind of hypocritical to give me unsollicited critiscism in a badly formulated way (see above rules which are almost never followed). You can be blunt all you want with me, and I will do the same. Doesn't mean I'll tell you that you are sooo right and immediately accomodate you. And yes, I might not feel the need to 'enjoy' your company after we've exchanged bluntness. That's my prerogative. That doesn't mean I didn't appreciate your honesty. I'll most likely be more than happy to talk to you afterwards as long as you make it clear you don't hold a grudge for not following your advice. I prefer honesty much more to passive aggressiveness, or fakeness. That just makes me paranoid.

    Btw, just because we didn't change our behavior, doesn't mean we didn't take your comment on board. It just means that we didn't agree with it, or it isn't a priority to us. Aka, you could well be right, but it's not worth the effort to change it as the change would demand more energy than it's worth, in our opinion. However, if you use the above mentioned feedback rules, you are way more likely to get us to adapt our behavior when around you. I personally like accomodating people as long as they appreciate it. So while I might disagree with whatever it was that bothered you, I will gladly, if you make it clear that it bothered you, make an effort to not trigger your irritation when interacting with you.

    As for the appologizing thing, I've been told too that I do it too much so..I dunno.


    Disclaimer: all the above is a generalization and my fellow enfps will have to validate it works for them that way as well, otherwise it's just how I operate.

    I also feel there's a lot of miscommunication, as I often feel others, (and often NFJs and NTPs, ime) putting words in my mouth which make me frustrated and deny what they say , which they then consider empty excuses. I'm sure the same applies the other way around as well. It's in fact one of the reasons I'm here, as I'd love to get passed that communication hurdle.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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