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  1. #611
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I find I get along okay with ENFP's though in general, but I must admit I do kinda feel like I have to take quite a bit of time off if I've seen them quite a lot in a short period, and I've learned to make a conscious effort to sort of take them in small doses.

    INFP's are a totally different story though - I feel happy to spend all the time in the world with them, and whatever problems occur seem to get properly sorted out quite quickly and it strengthens the relationship, whilst with ENFP's they never seem to really actually get sorted out and it seems to only deepen the misunderstanding the more I try.

    I've speculated in the past as to whether it's to do with the whole Fi thing - with it being all about very individual values, often unique or peculiar to that person. Perhaps the INFP's just better at dealing with Fi, and maybe just more aware of how personal their peculiarities are and so less likely to expect others to live up to them or whatever, whilst the ENFP's might be perhaps a little less aware of this highly idiosyncratic part of themselves because they're more tuned into the chameleonic Ne that seems to be able to get on with everyone. Maybe they confuse the two at times, I dunno...
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  2. #612
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I'd say that if lots of people rant about their personal ENFP's, and then compare rants and find that there are lots of common trends, then that would, presumably, mean that it's probably type related!!!
    Yes, it certainly could be. I'm just saying these seem to be fewer and harder to identify as compared to the personal anecdotes. Help me with identifying more. Please?

    From what I understand so far:
    1. Can be very insensitive to other people's problems/issues.
    I'm not sure what to make of the interpersonal issues (expressing this insensitivity inappropriately and hurting people in the process-- if this is more common or isolated. Unclear.
    2. Does not listen to others carefully. I can see this being a problem. This is a problem I personally face with other extroverts too.
    3. Defensive when criticized.
    4. Intrusive.

    This is what I have so far. What did I miss?


    that one?
    Yeah, that one, thanks.

  3. #613
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    If these were even remotely type related, I am horrified and wanting to take X cover again.
    I think a lot of the issues stem from the ENFPs working on Ne mainly, and using their Fi to justify being selfish and unconcerned with others. Ne is a tricky bugger; always skipping from one thing to the next without finishing the last, and saying randomly whatever pops into the person's head.

    PersonalityPage's Personal Growth section has been very helpful to me in terms of identifying my own issues. The ENFP section may be helpful for you as well.

    These "Rules to Live By" for ENFPs seem applicable to our discussion. Especially numbers 2 and 5.

    2. Face Your Weaknesses! Realize and accept that some traits are strengths and some are weaknesses. By facing your weaknesses, you can overcome them and they will have less power over you.

    5. Smile at Criticism. Try to see disagreement and discord as an opportunity for growth, because thats exactly what it is. Try not to become overly defensive towards criticism; try to hear it and judge it objectively.

    6. Be Aware of Others. Remember that there are 15 other personality types out there who see things differently than you see them. Most of your problems with other people are easier to deal with if you try to understand the other person's perspective.

    8. Be Accountable for Yourself. Dont waste mental energy finding blame in others behaviour, or in identifying yourself as a victim. You have more control over your life than any other person has.

    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    From what I understand so far:
    1. Can be very insensitive to other people's problems/issues.
    I'm not sure what to make of the interpersonal issues (expressing this insensitivity inappropriately and hurting people in the process-- if this is more common or isolated. Unclear.
    2. Does not listen to others carefully. I can see this being a problem. This is a problem I personally face with other extroverts too.
    3. Defensive when criticized.
    4. Intrusive.
    Yes, exactly. See above

  4. #614
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Yes, it certainly could be. I'm just saying these seem to be fewer and harder to identify as compared to the personal anecdotes. Help me with identifying more. Please?

    From what I understand so far:
    1. Can be very insensitive to other people's problems/issues.
    I'm not sure what to make of the interpersonal issues (expressing this insensitivity inappropriately and hurting people in the process-- if this is more common or isolated. Unclear.
    2. Does not listen to others carefully. I can see this being a problem. This is a problem I personally face with other extroverts too.
    3. Defensive when criticized.
    4. Intrusive.

    This is what I have so far. What did I miss?
    Seems about right to me. I see it as quite similar to the ENTP problems in that you've got Ne seeming to get along and fit in with anyone anywhere anytime, harmless, funny, zany old Ne that everyone chuckles affectionately at between occasional times when they marvel at how much they underestimated the silly ol' clown.

    But then you've got the secondary which is an introverted judging function, meaning that the way we interpret things can be quite individual and not necessarily always chiming in with the way others see things, or see us. And forgetting often to put those judgements in the proper context of how they fit in with other people's points of view and needs.

    I find that in my case, the funny, friendly Ne gets me into trouble, situations that require more attachment than Ti can give me, and then suddenly the easy-going, harmless clown turns into the asshole because there's something here he just can't budge on, and it means not being able to accommodate the expectations of me that Ne has created in other people.

    Perhaps Fi functions in a similar way for the ENFP. It could be, I'm just speculating, that your friendly Ne clown has created an expectation of much greater awareness of others' feelings and concerns and/or a much greater need to adapt to them than your Fi can supply.

    In this respect it could even be that ENTP, surprisingly, might have it easier with people than ENFP, because we've got "smooth it over, stroke the skittish horse and give it a nosebag" Fe bringing up the left flank, whilst all you've got is bullying and impersonal Te. Stick onto the end of that, that both of us are struggling to actually piece together what ACTUALLY happened because our Si is so appalling that we're lost in a sea of our own interpretations of what happened, and it makes for a bit of a train wreck.

    If that speculation's correct, then I don't know who's got it worse - the ENFP who's coming off as a bit of a brat/bully but not caring and considering it everyone else's problem, or the ENTP who's coming off as a bit overdramatic and more attached than they really are, but yet actually quite frustrated and upset by the whole thing.

    Did I mention that I was just speculating?? LOL!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  5. #615
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Sometimes the rampant and open idealism can be rather grating... like when I take my ENFP brother on vacation to see one of the wonders of the world and am unable to take it in or enjoy it because he's grumbling and complaining in my ear the whole time, very vociferously, about how disgusted and disappointed and upset he is that there are - GASP! - souvenir shops everywhere!

    Cos like, you know, he expected it to be all pristine and full of high brow super respectful middle class graduates and only the most tasteful and relevant and organic locally sourced ethically traded hand made exquisite souvenirs to be sold!
    Haha, this is so funny because I absolutely do not identify with this. I've gone on a few group trips in the last 6 months and this kind of behavior would drive me nuts and in fact there is one person I refuse to travel with anymore because of their haterade tendencies. The above behavior sounds more INTX-ish to me.

    I guess I don't read the above attribute as 'too much idealism' but rather a lack of positive attitude which I feel is a part of the 'idealism' of ENFP makeup. Even if I were really disappointed, I wouldn't make a big show of it and would try to make the best of things because there's always a silver lining and you never know what's around the corner.

    I especially am mindful of the group vibe and more than for myself I wouldn't want to bring the group down. I think that's a lack of Fe or something I cannot stand people who are so wrapped up in their own negativity that they feel a need to spread it around. It's one thing to be unhappy with something, it's another to start ruining other people's time.

    When I've not enjoyed something on a trip, I've been more likely to branch out on my own and do something I like or else clear my head.

    Also, I think they sorta need to be adored a bit too much sometimes, so that the slightest expression, however calm or respectful, of disapproval or disagreement with a way that they've behaved can be taken as a great attack on them and they react very very defensively. Whilst all the time trying to pin the blame for what they call "the argument" (but which needn't have been one if they'd responded as calmly as you initiated) on you, projecting their own oversensitivity onto you.
    I've heard this before on the forum.

    I've noticed a tendency in my brother and another couple of ENFP's that I know, to be just incapable of ever apologizing.
    Haha, again this is funny to me because I've been told the opposite and that I apologize too much. It's partly a figure of speech like "I'm sorry" = "I empathisize and I'm sorry to hear that" not necessarily an acceptance of guilt.

    I guess "I'm sorry you feel that way" doesn't count as a real apology to you then?

    They have an image of themselves as being very gracious and generous and all that, but if you actually put it to the test you find that to them it's all about them, no matter how much you say it's not about criticizing or attacking them but about trying to express how you feel, they still seem much more intent on just shutting you up and they're happy to sweep it under the carpet without giving you the chance to properly have your say, no matter how frustrated or upset that leaves you, as long as they don't have to listen to anything that might imply that they're not perfect, and as long as the "conflict" ends. They use the word "conflict" to mean "somebody speaking in a voice that isn't either completely flat or jokey and laughing, particularly when they're talking about me".
    Are you sure you're not talking about INFPS? :yim_rolling_on_the_

    I wrote a longer answer, but I dunno - I haven't met enough confirmed ENFPs IRL to really comment. Perhaps you just happen to know a lot of immature ENFP types? Perhaps it's the skittish nature of Fi when presented with "a threat". Perhaps it's a common issue with ENTP vs ENFP relations?
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  6. #616
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    For me, ENFPs are incredible fun as long as we're agreeing.


    But the moment we disagree, they freak out. They take it personally. They stop listening. They get passive-aggressive. And it takes so long to move on. Once the disagreement has occurred, they read false meanings into everything I say from that point forward.


    That alone makes me keep them at arm's length, no matter how much I like them.



    But this could depend a lot on maturity. I've met many immature ENFPs. Not all, but most.

  7. #617
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It could be, I'm just speculating, that your friendly Ne clown has created an expectation of much greater awareness of others' feelings and concerns and/or a much greater need to adapt to them than your Fi can supply.

    In this respect it could even be that ENTP, surprisingly, might have it easier with people than ENFP [...]
    This has been my experience, at least when the chips are down (otherwise the ENTP's penchant for debate and rebellious behavior gets them in hot water more often). The ENTP's Fe is a salve for interpersonal friction, while the ENFP's Fi seems rigid and unyielding.

  8. #618
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    I have no trouble with bashing. I don't see this exercise as bashing either since I don't know or identify personally with any of the people you all have mentioned. It's not personal. I'm really just trying to maximize my own learning. Empirical is fine but the sample size matters. That was the point I was trying to make.
    It's not your fault. No need to apologize for a bunch of strangers.
    To be fair, we saw patterns and described them. We were then asked for examples, so we gave them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    But I just wanna knooooooow...

    No seriously, sometimes I don't want to talk about things either. "I don't want to talk about it" usually means I don't want to talk about it and I do genuinely try to respect that.

    If you do, however say "I don't want to talk about it" and then proceed to repeatedly reference whatever it is they didn't talk about and then withdraw, eventually I will snap "Well do you want to talk about it or don't you? For someone who doesn't want to talk about it you sure seem to be mentioning it a lot." and then I get yelled at for being rude.
    I never do this. But I find that ENFPs have to "bond" and will feel rejected if I fail to mention everything in my life. If I say I don't wish to speak about it and move on, I can see the curiosity for days afterward. Eventually, I will be questioned about it again and I will still say I don't want to talk about it. At which case either one of two things will happen:

    1. I am told that I am not letting him/her "in"
    2. I am told that I am not healthy for bottling up emotions.

    The first one may be correct. The second one... well, we all have different ways of dealing with problems. My not talking to you about is not bottling it up - I simply do not want to discuss it with you.

    For me personally, talking about sensitive issues takes a lot of energy from me. It's exhausting and tiring and is usually counter productive to my growth process. So, I will never bring things up just because someone "wants to know".

    I know that in forming relations, there needs to be some exposition. These things come over time on their own volition. Being poked and prodded will make it that these things never come out. I'm not walking through that hell again just because you are curious.

  9. #619
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    It's not your fault. No need to apologize for a bunch of strangers.
    To be fair, we saw patterns and described them. We were then asked for examples, so we gave them.



    I never do this. But I find that ENFPs have to "bond" and will feel rejected if I fail to mention everything in my life. If I say I don't wish to speak about it and move on, I can see the curiosity for days afterward. Eventually, I will be questioned about it again and I will still say I don't want to talk about it. At which case either one of two things will happen:

    1. I am told that I am not letting him/her "in"
    2. I am told that I am not healthy for bottling up emotions.

    The first one may be correct. The second one... well, we all have different ways of dealing with problems. My not talking to you about is not bottling it up - I simply do not want to discuss it with you.

    For me personally, talking about sensitive issues takes a lot of energy from me. It's exhausting and tiring and is usually counter productive to my growth process. So, I will never bring things up just because someone "wants to know".

    I know that in forming relations, there needs to be some exposition. These things come over time on their own volition. Being poked and prodded will make it that these things never come out. I'm not walking through that hell again just because you are curious.


    It's as if I wrote this post myself.

  10. #620
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Seems about right to me. I see it as quite similar to the ENTP problems in that you've got Ne seeming to get along and fit in with anyone anywhere anytime, harmless, funny, zany old Ne that everyone chuckles affectionately at between occasional times when they marvel at how much they underestimated the silly ol' clown.

    But then you've got the secondary which is an introverted judging perception, meaning that the way we interpret things can be quite individual and not necessarily always chiming in with the way others see things, or see us. And forgetting often to put those judgements in the proper context of how they fit in with other people's points of view and needs.

    I find that in my case, the funny, friendly Ne gets me into trouble, situations that require more attachment than Ti can give me, and then suddenly the easy-going, harmless clown turns into the asshole because there's something here he just can't budge on, and it means not being able to accommodate the expectations of me that Ne has created in other people.

    Perhaps Fi functions in a similar way for the ENFP. It could be, I'm just speculating, that your friendly Ne clown has created an expectation of much greater awareness of others' feelings and concerns and/or a much greater need to adapt to them than your Fi can supply.

    In this respect it could even be that ENTP, surprisingly, might have it easier with people than ENFP, because we've got "smooth it over, stroke the skittish horse and give it a nosebag" Fe bringing up the left flank, whilst all you've got is bullying and impersonal Te. Stick onto the end of that, that both of us are struggling to actually piece together what ACTUALLY happened because our Si is so appalling that we're lost in a sea of our own interpretations of what happened, and it makes for a bit of a train wreck.

    If that speculation's correct, then I don't know who's got it worse - the ENFP who's coming off as a bit of a brat/bully but not caring and considering it everyone else's problem, of the ENTP who's coming off as a bit overdramatic and more attached than they really are, but yet actually quite frustrated and upset by the whole thing.

    Did I mention that I was just speculating?? LOL!
    VERY well specumulated, Sub. So true. I can think of several recent examples where what you said about the Ne-Fi conflict towards the outside world came into play. I just don't know about the last part.

    If that speculation's correct, then I don't know who's got it worse - the ENFP who's coming off as a bit of a brat/bully but not caring and considering it everyone else's problem, of the ENTP who's coming off as a bit overdramatic and more attached than they really are, but yet actually quite frustrated and upset by the whole thing.
    .

    Do ENTPs come off as overdramatic when they are less attached? In my experience (small N =3 - fair disclosure seemed in order since I raised this point), ENTPs come off as less dramatic and attached than they really are. Your last sentence rings true - they really do seem to be more frustrated and upset than they let on.

    With both types, here's a positive, in my opinion. Both get wrapped up in their own Fi-ing and Ti-ing and can go on with their lives completely oblivious but when things are brought to their attention, at least with the ENFPs and ENTPs I know, they are sensitive. With the ENFPs, even if they are initially defensive, they do go away and Fi-le (couldn't resist) what was said and alter behavior. I know I do.

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