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  1. #581
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    But ironically, the initial criticism/issue never gets addressed. The argument is always about how I say something, but never what I actually say. It can be a bit annoying. But whatever...
    Yes, absolutely. "The minute you raise your voice I switch off, I'm not listening any more and all I'm trying to do is stop the argument", he says, with a totally straight face, as if he honestly sees no problem with this. And the argument is my fault because I've raised my voice - now!

    "Well if you say something and I disagree then I'm entitled to defend my opinion aren't I?" he says. Sure you are buddy, but then when other people defend theirs back, it doesn't automatically mean it's now an argument and it's that person's fault for not respecting your right to defend your opinion. And did it occur to you that there was no need to "defend your opinion" anyway, because nobody was attacking it, and perhaps that the person was just trying to tell you how they felt and that the appropriate response might've been to LISTEN and understand, rather than try to shut them up by repeated protestations of your total innocence and blamelessness, because they're expressing a feeling of not being happy and implying that you just might, possibly, have played a small part in that?

    It's always the same - he never FORCES anyone to do anything, God forbid! If we ended up not doing anything we wanted to do just because we got fed up of trying to persuade him that running around in a wild goose chase on the off chance that there might be something really awesome in this random direction he's taking wasn't such a good idea because everything we said he countered with a very vehement declaration that the other place was 'terrible' (i.e. didn't match his vision of a perfect place), that we 'might as well' continue looking now and it's 'not worth' going 'all the way back' (8km - about 5 mins in the car) to the place we're talking about, then it's entirely OUR fault for not being insistent enough. Even though, if we had been insistent enough, he would've then said we were being pushy and aggressive and forceful and ganging up on him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I've come to the conclusion that most arguments tend to be about bottled up stuff. If people had the balls to just say what's on their mind everyone would live much more peacefully. But that evil Fe is always lurking...weaklings! Preserving the harmony? NO thanks. Not at the cost of truthfulness!
    In my brother's case though, he says the same thing as you, but to most other people who talk about him it's pretty obvious that the reason they don't bring things up with him is because to do so is like running the gauntlet and seldom gets anywhere. The only possible outcomes, from personal experience of not just myself but many others, all share in common that you're left feeling very frustrated, dismissed, unheard and that you've had traits and motivations ascribed to you that are so absolutely ludicrous that it's as though your body was simply a stage prop filling in for the person he was actually talking about. He walks away happy because as far as he's concerned he's defended his corner and if you still have a problem then it's your fault, and it's no skin off his nose if you're a "loser", but the other person walks away feeling a lot of impotent frustration and rage that can take days to go away because the person you need to address about it, you know will simply not hear it or answer for it or take any responsibility for it at all.

    He also takes absence of criticism as absence of flaws in himself - rather than, as is often the case, it's actually confirmation of it. As in, if only one person tells him he's very pushy and touchy and can be inconsiderate of other's feelings, then he sees it as just this one person's problem - nothing on earth will get him to speculate as to whether it's more likely that that one person is just the one person in the many he knows who is willing to run the gauntlet of his touchiness and defensiveness to actually raise the subject with him, whilst everyone else can't be bothered and so just suffers in silence, hoping to just take him in small doses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I'll tell you one thing Substitute, I might not show it, but nothing pisses me off more than unwarranted or unfair criticism from people I like. So although I don't relate to your brother's description, I also don't know the context in which such arguments happen.
    Ah, but how will you really truly know whether it's unwarranted unless you first let the person have their say and listen without getting defensive and upset, or walking away? With the ENFP's I know, half the time the reason they think it's unwarranted is because they have yet to actually listen to your whole point of view, and are stuck on what they've extrapolated your point to be from the half-sentences you can squeeze in between their self-justifications and seriously screwy retellings of events (man, I thought my Si was bad but these guys make me look like an ISxJ!). And sometimes I wonder if they don't sorta do that on purpose, because it's easier to argue against an insanely half-baked idea that nobody actually suggested, but which, if they did, would make them stupid and nasty people (and therefore easier to dimsiss) than to take on board the rather more sensible and possibly valid one that somebody actually did say, which might mean accepting that you've done wrong and having to apologize.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  2. #582
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Here's a concrete example:

    ENFP guy is consistently flaking out on people. He makes promises and never keeps them. He allows people to put their trust in him and doesn't follow through. I say "Hey ENFP guy! What are you doing? Why bother making plans you don't keep?" He replies "I forgot/something came up." After a few more discussions about this same behavior he will say "Why don't people just get off my back? I need to do my own thing. I'm not hurting anybody." In effect blaming the circumstances, and other people and their interpretations.
    that's lame. i couldn't hang out with that dude...

    actually i should clarify by saying...i wouldn't make plans with or count on that dude...but if i enjoyed his company i'd hang out if i happen to see him somewhere...i guess it's just about adjusting your expectations....like if you like the dude but he's a flake...either decide you hate that and don't hang out with him...or just don't make plans with him and see him when ya see him...know what i mean...just stop trying to change people...but don't give em more than you want either...ya know?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  3. #583
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    The point is I am not interpreting or misinterpreting anything. The reasons mean nothing to me at that point, it's the result. If I tell a friend a million times that I have to get off the phone but they keep talking, and I am forced to hang up, I am punished for days for my rude behavior and how s/he would never do something so rude.

    But meanwhile, the reason why I had to be so rude in the first place is never addressed. If I say that there was no other option for me but that, it results in denial that I ever indicated I needed to go in the first place. And things will never be better until I apologize for my behavior. Stuff like that.

    But after an hour long argument, almost all ENFPs will concede if, and only if, they can understand why I needed to go so badly. Then I will get a half assed "oh, your dad was dying, I understand why now you were so testy with me. Ok, I'm sorry for not letting you go earlier, I just didn't understand why it was so important. had I known, I surely would have let you go".

    Which is entirely beside the point. Why I have to go is none of your business, and I should not have to explain things to you in order to get off the phone. And my urgent reason is not the blame. I'm upset with you because you wouldn't let me get off the phone not because my dad was dying, or whatever. Meaning, I am legitimately upset with you and am not projecting my feelings from another situation.


    EDIT: I just saw your "tell me why" comment.
    my point exactly. it's none of your business. you don't need to understand, but you do need to accept.

    Ah! but that's just it, and why this whole thing is subjective. I DO need to understand why you are doing something. A simple "I can't right now" would personally be enough for me.

    I accept all kinds of stuff as long as it's not being an inconvenience to me. If it is being an inconvenience I must understand. Doesn't mean I'll bitch about it btw. This i want to make clear because you seem to be mentioning friends who complain about it. I don't do that often unless it's really an important issue.

    And to understand what I mean by this see it this way...you can either accept that's how I work or try to understand it. Do you think you should accept what I'm saying just like that? Well, obviously I'll go about my way of doing things regardless. But if you don't understand what I mean by this, you won't really accept me will ya?

    Hope that last paragraph made some sense

  4. #584
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Ah! but that's just it, and why this whole thing is subjective. I DO need to understand why you are doing something. A simple "I can't right now" would personally be enough for me.

    I accept all kinds of stuff as long as it's not being an inconvenience to me. If it is being an inconvenience I must understand. Doesn't mean I'll bitch about it btw. This i want to make clear because you seem to be mentioning friends who complain about it. I don't do that often unless it's really an important issue.

    And to understand what I mean by this see it this way...you can either accept that's how I work or try to understand it. Do you think you should accept what I'm saying just like that? Well, obviously I'll go about my way of doing things regardless. But if you don't understand what I mean by this, you won't really accept me will ya?

    Hope that last paragraph made some sense
    I understand you and you made sense, but that's also why I think you're an anomaly.

    I don't always want to go into the reasons. If I'm sad about something and I don't wish to speak about it and I voice it, I still get pushed and prodded until I blow up. At which point, I am the bad guy now. I don't always want to share personal info. Sometimes "I don't want to talk about it now" should be enough, but most often it isn't.

  5. #585
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    That's just it. The person is taking issue with me doing it in the first place but I happen to know why I do it and have a good reason to do it. So why should I change? It's a matter of principle.
    I'll maybe post some more examples for Tiny, and you tell me if these are a matter of principle, or just disregard for anyone else's wishes except for their own.

    In the off-chance my people reading skills fail me...do I detect a hint of annoyance in your speech? :P
    No. Tone is not easy to read over the internet. I've come to terms with this behavior. So like I said: people-reading FAIL.

    I'm not admitting to a fault. I'm admitting to believin I think I'm good at it, which could be perceived as a fault.
    Sure you were. Don't try to weasel out of this. You were just mentioning that as a way to say that people are reading the ENFPs' behaviors wrongly, and in fact ENFPs are better at reading people. Which of course can never be substantiated.

    And why are you talking about other ENFPs?
    Because that is the topic of the thread?

    This is not a healthy way to view things, that's what I've been telling you. Take my comments at face value instead of trying to compare them to other ENFP people you might now.
    I haven't compared you to them once. I just commented on your comments about their behavior.

  6. #586
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I understand you and you made sense, but that's also why I think you're an anomaly.

    I don't always want to go into the reasons. If I'm sad about something and I don't wish to speak about it and I voice it, I still get pushed and prodded until I blow up. At which point, I am the bad guy now. I don't always want to share personal info. Sometimes "I don't want to talk about it now" should be enough, but it most often it isn't.
    Completely true. I remember once even having to lock myself in the bathroom to get away from an ENFP's relentless prying. They even followed me upstairs and continued through the closed door. I had to just completely refuse to reply, I put cotton wool in my ears so I couldn't hear and ran myself a bath and just sat in there for like an hour or something, just waiting for them to get bored of talking to themselves and go away.

    Soon as I came downstairs though, with the towel round my head and in my bathrobe, what did I get? I got a concerned look from behind a coffee mug in the kitchen and this infuriating ENFP asking me whether, now that I'd had time to calm down, I wasn't willing to discuss it calmly with them now.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
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  7. #587
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I understand you and you made sense, but that's also why I think you're an anomaly.

    I don't always want to go into the reasons. If I'm sad about something and I don't wish to speak about it and I voice it, I still get pushed and prodded until I blow up. At which point, I am the bad guy now. I don't always want to share personal info. Sometimes "I don't want to talk about it now" should be enough, but most often it isn't.
    Really?

    My friends have found the best way to get me in this exact situation is "I'll tell you all about it later, I just have to go now."

    As long as I don't feel like information is being withheld from me deliberately, I won't prod for it. "I don't want to talk about it now" would be enough for me because it implies I might get to hear about it later. That's enough for me.

  8. #588
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    I think this thread has degenerated into a personal "this is why I dislike the ENFPs in my life" vent. That's cool, just not as helpful to those of us looking hard to see what I can learn from what's said that may be more general to a type versus describing personal traits of people, albeit annoying/flaky etc.

    I would be equally offended/annoyed by many of the behaviors described here (not hanging up when the other person clearly has to go/driving around aimlessly when people in the car have other preferences/not showing up for things you said you'd do regularly) and may have experienced similar problems with other types (INFPs in particular). It seems strange that this would be a type trait versus a problem particular to the person or at the very least, an extreme manifestation of what may be a trait common across the type. Flakiness, I thought, is associated with most Ps. The person would be able to control how extreme they are on this front. Not hanging up when someone is clearly expressing a need to go is just plain insensitive. Strange ascribed to a type that is usually seen as quite sensitive to others' needs at the cost of their own.

    I think the defensivess part when faced with criticism could relate a great deal to the person's level of insecurity. Healthy people who are secure in their skin would take criticism better, regardless of type. I'm not sure why ENFPs would be more susceptible to this unless perhaps it takes them longer (age) to get to a place where they feel more secure in their own skin.

    I'm taking away the 'listen to the complaint/suggestion/feelings of the other person fully before using Fi. That is helpful. I'll keep that in mind to see if I do this or not next time something is brought up.

    In my own experience, the greatest misunderstandings I have seems to be with INFs. I wonder why.
    Likes Alassea liked this post

  9. #589
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Well I'm not sure I'm the right person to tackle all of this...and I'm not sure I like to address this kind of stuff using a "type-related" angle for too long...I mean, it's stuff like this that makes me doubt about MBTI. People behave differently. MBTI is about cognition not behavior. I'm not necessarily an anomaly. Everyone is an anomaly, in a sense.

    A piece of advice when dealing with ENFPs though, if they are anything like me.... "Free spirits"... "Live and let live"...etc

    "Can you stop doing x,y and z?". Er...no. Tell me WHY I should first, and then I might consider it


    Don't boss an ENFP around. Don't tell him/her what to do. Make him/her feel guilty about doing it. That might be the only way to go about changing him/her. But, why would you really?
    yeaaah...for real people step off your enfp friends...expect them to behave like them and not you.

    also jenocyde..i never let things bottle up...i say it right when it bothers me too because i forget it minutes later...i can't imagine an enfp not being that way...enfp dad and sister also this way...you always know where you stand with us or how we feel about things at all times....we don't leave ya guessing. in fact i can't think of one argument that happened because of something i brought up about something that happened in the past...literally not one.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #590
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    Really?

    My friends have found the best way to get me in this exact situation is "I'll tell you all about it later, I just have to go now."

    As long as I don't feel like information is being withheld from me deliberately, I won't prod for it. "I don't want to talk about it now" would be enough for me because it implies I might get to hear about it later. That's enough for me.
    Yes, I personally don't like to talk about things until I have had a chance to think through them and decide how I want to talk about them calmly and rationally so I won't do it until I'm ready (regardless of whether this is with the involved party or just a concerned friend). I can't imagine faulting anyone else for wanting to do the same, if they'd like to talk about whatever it is at all.

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