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  1. #541
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Also, I think they sorta need to be adored a bit too much sometimes, so that the slightest expression, however calm or respectful, of disapproval or disagreement with a way that they've behaved can be taken as a great attack on them and they react very very defensively. Whilst all the time trying to pin the blame for what they call "the argument" (but which needn't have been one if they'd responded as calmly as you initiated) on you, projecting their own oversensitivity onto you.

    I've noticed a tendency in my brother and another couple of ENFP's that I know, to be just incapable of ever apologizing. They have an image of themselves as being very gracious and generous and all that, but if you actually put it to the test you find that to them it's all about them, no matter how much you say it's not about criticizing or attacking them but about trying to express how you feel, they still seem much more intent on just shutting you up and they're happy to sweep it under the carpet without giving you the chance to properly have your say, no matter how frustrated or upset that leaves you, as long as they don't have to listen to anything that might imply that they're not perfect, and as long as the "conflict" ends. They use the word "conflict" to mean "somebody speaking in a voice that isn't either completely flat or jokey and laughing, particularly when they're talking about me".
    +1
    More often than not, I am forced to apologize for daring to 'criticize' them, especially in my 'horrible, brutish' manner. The tears, the agony.

    But ironically, the initial criticism/issue never gets addressed. The argument is always about how I say something, but never what I actually say. It can be a bit annoying. But whatever...

  2. #542
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    I'll tell you one thing Substitute, I might not show it, but nothing pisses me off more than unwarranted or unfair criticism from people I like. So although I don't relate to your brother's description, I also don't know the context in which such arguments happen.

    Also there's something I don't understand in others which is, if they have a problem why don't they voice them right away. Instead I see people bottling things inside until they are fed up with it and then they voice it and it makes no sense because they've never complained before about it. So in my eyes I see it as them not even giving me a chance to adjust my behavior. It's as if they waited for me to feel comfortable only to say they never liked it in the first place.



    Lauren : get a grip! Always hating on the ENFPs. :P

  3. #543
    I drink your milkshake. Thessaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Sounds like we know the same person...her name begin with M?
    Yes, actually...I doubt it is the same person since we live in different countries though.

  4. #544
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    But ironically, the initial criticism/issue never gets addressed.
    This is my real problem with this. I don't mind any fuss as long as we can actually work out the issue. I don't know. I thought it was just a J need for closure, but if others think this way too...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thessaly View Post
    Yes, actually...I doubt it is the same person since we live in different countries though.
    She travels and we're on the same continent! What's the last letter of her name?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Lauren : get a grip! Always hating on the ENFPs. :P
    Exactly! Focusing on being criticized instead of the actual criticism. I have a strong love of ENxPs, and I only comment out of the goodness of my heart

  5. #545
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Sometimes the rampant and open idealism can be rather grating... like when I take my ENFP brother on vacation to see one of the wonders of the world and am unable to take it in or enjoy it because he's grumbling and complaining in my ear the whole time, very vociferously, about how disgusted and disappointed and upset he is that there are - GASP! - souvenir shops everywhere!

    Cos like, you know, he expected it to be all pristine and full of high brow super respectful middle class graduates and only the most tasteful and relevant and organic locally sourced ethically traded hand made exquisite souvenirs to be sold!

    Also, I think they sorta need to be adored a bit too much sometimes, so that the slightest expression, however calm or respectful, of disapproval or disagreement with a way that they've behaved can be taken as a great attack on them and they react very very defensively. Whilst all the time trying to pin the blame for what they call "the argument" (but which needn't have been one if they'd responded as calmly as you initiated) on you, projecting their own oversensitivity onto you.

    I've noticed a tendency in my brother and another couple of ENFP's that I know, to be just incapable of ever apologizing. They have an image of themselves as being very gracious and generous and all that, but if you actually put it to the test you find that to them it's all about them, no matter how much you say it's not about criticizing or attacking them but about trying to express how you feel, they still seem much more intent on just shutting you up and they're happy to sweep it under the carpet without giving you the chance to properly have your say, no matter how frustrated or upset that leaves you, as long as they don't have to listen to anything that might imply that they're not perfect, and as long as the "conflict" ends. They use the word "conflict" to mean "somebody speaking in a voice that isn't either completely flat or jokey and laughing, particularly when they're talking about me".
    This is interesting, I have had VERY similar experiences with INFPs and ENFJs. I have come to the conclusion that there are four major kinds of ENFP and each comes with their own flaws and positive attributes. I am always asking for critiques because I am always searching for an objective means to improve myself and my behaviour. I have often been told I do the opposite; criticise people thoroughly without taking into account that it might hurt their feelings because I firmly believe that a criticism of your actions is not a criticism of your character.

    Some ENFPs are going to be feelier than others, I guess others like me have wandered into bitch territory and ain't coming back.

  6. #546
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    This is interesting, I have had VERY similar experiences with INFPs and ENFJs. I have come to the conclusion that there are four major kinds of ENFP and each comes with their own flaws and positive attributes. I am always asking for critiques because I am always searching for an objective means to improve myself and my behaviour. I have often been told I do the opposite; criticise people thoroughly without taking into account that it might hurt their feelings because I firmly believe that a criticism of your actions is not a criticism of your character.

    Some ENFPs are going to be feelier than others, I guess others like me have wandered into bitch territory and ain't weaklings coming back.
    I don't know what you considering bitch territory but from my experience, if I generally get along well with everybody (i never really had a big argument with any of my friends) is because I kill conflict right away by embracing it. Speak my mind at all times.

    I've come to the conclusion that most arguments tend to be about bottled up stuff. If people had the balls to just say what's on their mind everyone would live much more peacefully. But that evil Fe is always lurking...weaklings! Preserving the harmony? NO thanks. Not at the cost of truthfulness!

  7. #547
    Senior Member Rhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Quarantine, my ass. Learn some self-control.
    Amargith might have meant something different, but I was using "quarantine" as a metaphor for self-control. When I'm emotionally overwhelmed, I keep myself from acting on those emotions by going into lock-down mode—keeping the volatile emotions quarantined, so to speak, until they're neutralized and no longer a threat to the people around me.

  8. #548
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    But that evil Fe is always lurking...weaklings! Preserving the harmony? NO thanks. Not at the cost of truthfulness!
    Sure...

    Could it be that the ENFP does not feel (s)he has actually done anything to take issue with? Truth in matters like these is very subjective.

  9. #549
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhapsody View Post
    Amargith might have meant something different, but I was using "quarantine" as a metaphor for self-control. When I'm emotionally overwhelmed, I keep myself from acting on those emotions by going into lock-down mode—keeping the volatile emotions quarantined, so to speak, until they're neutralized and no longer a threat to the people around me.
    Yeah. I think what I meant by self-control was knowing how to separate the true feelings from all the stress. I was just trying to make it clear I think facing things head on is healthier in the long run. It's an important skill to perfect.

  10. #550
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Sure...

    Could it be that the ENFP does not feel (s)he has actually done anything to take issue with? Truth in matters like these is very subjective.
    Yes that could very well be. And it's easily explained too.

    I can only speak for myself, but I never really have any regrets in personal relationships. I am what I am, and always strive to be completely transparent. You either like me or you don't. So if you lead me to believe you like me and keep ignoring the stuff you don't like about me for the sake of harmony, but then say something like "actually I find this particularly unnerving in ya", you kinda leave me baffled because I'm left thinking that our friendship or whatever was better than this and you already felt comfortable enough in the past to address it at the time. And if not...why?

    Don't want this to come across as bitching about every single thing all the time. lol, I'm pretty chill. Which is why I don't get these dramatic ENFPs people keep talking about.


    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde
    But ironically, the initial criticism/issue never gets addressed. The argument is always about how I say something, but never what I actually say. It can be a bit annoying. But whatever...
    I can understand this in the context of "it's a matter of principle". If it's out of the blue you leave me wondering why the hell this was never brought up before.

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