[ENFP] Hate an ENFP? Tell us why!

[AgentF]

At least personally, if I'm making negative comments about someone - even if they seem superficial - it's because I honestly think they are harmful in some way. ENFPs really do have a hard time not speaking what is, to us, personal truth, because we feel a certain degree of responsibility to share our perception. What kind of friend would I be if I saw negative things coming and said nothing? I suppose I could just live and let live, but I treasure the people around me for calling me out and setting me straight when I'm doing something harmful to myself, and I feel like I owe my friends the same - moreso the more they are important to me.

agreed. ENFPs miss very little detail when it comes to people. we detect nuances in speech...eye twitches...pauses in communication...tension in your voice...discrepancies between what you say and do. can you imagine how exhausting it would be to keep all this inside? we see both the good in people but also much of the shite they think they're hiding. doesn't mean we're always right in our conclusions, but we pick up a lot of detail. so speaking out is a pressure release valve of sorts that is also directly related to our sense of integrity. i frequently vocalize what i see to my friends, and if it gets to be too much, i am usually quick to pick up on that. (as was noted, when all else fails just smack us with the Te stick--NTJs are particularly good about that.)

but i will NOT keep my mouth shut if i detect something that will negatively affect someone i care about. and i care about most people.

However, I also do have a bad tendency to make snippy remarks when I feel like someone hasn't taken me seriously, or is being completely oblivious to a bad situation. You know it's going to hurt the people involved and probably the people around them and you've tried to stop it but nothing's changed - it gets frustrating, like watching a train wreck from above and not being able to do anything.

i know, right? i feel helpless to influence those kinds of situations (and we are pretty good at influencing situations, so we feel incredibly frustrated when we see an ugly inevitability. what bullshit to simply smile and nod when you see someone putting their hand in the blender.)

I think almost every person on this planet is selfish without realizing it.

I think people tend to see ENFPs' shiny exteriors and forget that inside we are serious, anxious, and broody creatures. We hide that side of ourselves to protect both you and us.

beautifully put. we're a very sensitive breed that experiences both sides of every emotional extreme. we can barely manage to reign it in: what kind of stink bomb would hit the rest of the world if we were to expose you to it? the joy you see has a very worrisome twin.

(a friend once asked me why i was always so cheerful. so i explained that it really wasn't the case, but that i chose to latch onto the happy side of things despite an awareness of The Ugly. she mockingly asked me "what do you know about ugly" so i let her into that world a bit. she then looked at me like i had just escaped from the crematorium at Auschwitz.)

 

[Zarathustra]

Yeah, I know the thread is old, but I have more trouble with ENFPs than any other type. They're like sirens to me. I'm drawn in by the infectious giggling and having of the fun, but I am invariably caught up in a long talk about feelings. Usually what I have unintentionally done or said to hurt their feelings. Sometimes this is my own bluntness or messed up sense of humor. I fully admit that sometimes what I say comes across way more harshly than it is meant. As a clueless INTP, I'm often completely oblivious about what might offend someone. Many times, however, this is projection by the ENFP, and what I actually said has no logical connection to how they feel about what I said. Time and time again, I've gotten really close to an ENFP only to quietly withdraw when the emote fest becomes too much for me.

For example, I have an ENFP friend who is married to a police officer. Her husband teaches a group of teenage kids who want to eventually become cops. The discussion went off topic and into clubs. I said, "I was in the debate club. No one in the club became a cop." She hears, "I think that debate club kids are really smart, and kids who want to become cops aren't intelligent enough to be a debater." I was quite taken aback, especially considering that her husband and I are friends. This led to a very long discussion about her feelings, which she prompty dropped when she became distracted.

I've found this sort of misinterpretation/projection to be common with the ENFPs I have known. I have a whole lot of fun with them, and I don't mean to be hypercritical. Honestly, ENFPs make me laugh more than any other type. I just have to get away from them sometimes for my own sanity because their emotions can be rather overwhelming.

Frankly, I read negative things into your comment as well. My first thought was, "She's saying cops are stupid." I really don't think it's the fault of the ENFP. I hear this kind of stuff from INTPs all the time (Fi users projecting onto INTPs' comments things that [supposedly] aren't really there), so much so that it makes me wonder whether it's really the Fi user projecting things onto the INTPs' comments, or the INTP being so fucking clueless about their own subconscious emotions/intentions that they say genuinely offensive things spurred on by subconscious emotions/intentions that they are simply completely out of touch with/unaware of/do not understand.

 

[StephMC]

... I treasure the people around me for calling me out and setting me straight when I'm doing something harmful to myself, and I feel like I owe my friends the same - moreso the more they are important to me. ...

Do you get defensive or take offense sometimes though, like MDP2525 mentioned? My sister does often. And if she doesn't get defensive, she seems like she ignores what I say. I gave up pointing out that the guy she was interested in is an asshole, only because she would pursue them anyways. She always has to see the good, and it doesn't end up working out... because in the end, turns out they were an asshole. Like you said, it's frustrating to watch the train wreck.... so I see why it's important to ENFPs to say something when they feel they should. But some ENFPs don't seem like the same in return.

 

[Lady_X]

It's quite possibly an ego thing. I very often think I see more of the truth then the person stating their opinion so I don't give it equal weight. Or it's that I value things differently than they do so it just hold true for me. I just prefer to make my own judgement calls.

 

[skylights]

so speaking out is a pressure release valve of sorts that is also directly related to our sense of integrity. i frequently vocalize what i see to my friends, and if it gets to be too much, i am usually quick to pick up on that.

Yes, exactly!!

Honestly, I usually know when I'm pissing someone off with what I say, but I might keep saying it if I feel like it contains a grain of truth that would be healing, were it to be uncovered.

Do you get defensive or take offense sometimes though, like MDP2525 mentioned? My sister does often. And if she doesn't get defensive, she seems like she ignores what I say. I gave up pointing out that the guy she was interested in is an asshole, only because she would pursue them anyways. She always has to see the good, and it doesn't end up working out... because in the end, turns out they were an asshole. Like you said, it's frustrating to watch the train wreck.... so I see why it's important to ENFPs to say something when they feel they should. But some ENFPs don't seem like the same in return.

Yeah, I'm pretty defensive in nature... Enneagram 6 and all that. But for me personally - and this has a lot to do with my enneatype, I believe - I'm very indecisive, so I tend to absorb others' opinions, maybe more than I should. They can send me into internal turmoil. I haven't had anyone I know criticize my boyfriend (of a year), but if they did, I would probably defend him against them externally, but really analyze what they said internally. It really is an important thing to note that ENFPs almost always keep their serious, broody, negative thoughts about themselves and things important to them inside themselves - I would honestly be very surprised if your comments haven't registered with her, especially if she seems to brush them off.

As for ENFPs in general - the one thing I can say is that all ENFPs I've encountered seem quite willing to admit what we see as our faults (the problem, of course, being that we have to see them as faults!). Will your sister admit to having bad taste in men? Or have you discussed with her about relationships in general? Maybe there is something about the certainty of the assholes she dates that she is drawn to - I know that's true for me - I really seek a partner who is certain and self-assured. You might be able to resolve this issue with her by straightforwardly asking her what her real problem with your boyfriend is, and rebutting her points. ENFPs are first and foremost pattern-people, so if you can demonstrate to her that the pattern she thinks she is picking up on is an illusion, then her problems with him should vaporize. It does sound like a frustrating situation!

beautifully put. we're a very sensitive breed that experiences both sides of every emotional extreme. we can barely manage to reign it in: what kind of stink bomb would hit the rest of the world if we were to expose you to it? the joy you see has a very worrisome twin.

(a friend once asked me why i was always so cheerful. so i explained that it really wasn't the case, but that i chose to latch onto the happy side of things despite an awareness of The Ugly. she mockingly asked me "what do you know about ugly" so i let her into that world a bit. she then looked at me like i had just escaped from the crematorium at Auschwitz.)

It surprises me how much people don't see this side of us and how striking it is to them when it is revealed. My boyfriend and I had this discussion around our 8 month mark - that clearly I harbor a lot of darker thoughts inside that I do not share, but they are as much me (if not more!) as my exterior. He seems to be intrigued by my darker energy but also dislikes the negativity, but I struggle with uncoupling those. I do think it is good for my subconscious to work on this, though... to integrate and pacify. He says that he is willing to share them with me if I can share them with him in a way that is not directing the negativity towards him (fair point, being that the turmoil usually only comes out when I am very upset). Ah, the joys of being an ENFP sx.

 

[Starry]

For the record, I'm a 5w6.

I actually have no idea why I typed (only) 5w4...considering the fact my meaning was meant for all e5s...and especially because the INTJ friend I was referring to in my message is a 5w6 as well (but I still wrote 5w4 ??). The only thing I can come-up with is that I was focusing on INTPs...and perhaps my mind has a tendancy to associate the two. But I do know that not all INTPs are 5w4s (again...have no idea where my mind was there).

Frankly, I read negative things into your comment as well. My first thought was, "She's saying cops are stupid." I really don't think it's the fault of the ENFP. I hear this kind of stuff from INTPs all the time (Fi users projecting onto INTPs' comments things that [supposedly] aren't really there), so much so that it makes me wonder whether it's really the Fi user projecting things onto the INTPs' comments, or the INTP being so fucking clueless about their own subconscious emotions/intentions that they say genuinely offensive things spurred on by subconscious emotions/intentions that they are simply completely out of touch with/unaware of/do not understand.

^^^I'm going to be totally honest here and say that I have wondered the exact same thing!!! I just didn't know how to put my feelings/impressions into words...but you were somehow able to manage it (jealous of INxJs).

My INTJ father... he will say all kinds of shitty, offensive things haha...but owns it.

Now my experience with xNTPs is very different. I mean I haven't put it all together in my mind...but I guess what I can say is it often appears to me...that when an xNTP says something offensive and you call them on it...there is an immediate claim of 'innocence' (often followed by what feels like the xNTP turns your argument around on you)...which often leaves me baffled. ENTPs can start to remind me of the character of Harold Skimpole in Bleak House...in where I get the sense that they truly understand what is going on...but are capable of manipulating the situation by claiming 'innocence'. But I'm really left baffled by the INTPs. And yes...I do sometimes wonder if they are truly unaware or what. ((I guess I should put in some sort of disclaimer here that I mean no offense with what I am saying. I only seek understanding.))

 

[MacGuffin]

I had not noticed this thread before...

Let me write out my list.

 

[Zarathustra]

^^^I'm going to be totally honest here and say that I have wondered the exact same thing!!!

Yeah, I've thought it a bunch of times, but I want to genuinely understand the phenomenon, so, until now, I've always given them the benefit of the doubt (while holding in mind the possibility that what I expressed above is correct), and said to myself, "Collect more observations before rushing to a judgment". This is the first time I've ever expressed the idea (hypothesis) out loud.

My INTJ father... he will say all kinds of shitty, offensive things haha...but owns it.

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought when I read [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]' account about her father.

My first thought: "What an asshole. Fucking shitbag INTP fathers."

My second thought: "Does he really think that's not offensive/wrong. Is he just emotionally retarded/unaware (of himself and/or others)?"

My third thought: "I could see myself saying that to my child, but only if I wanted to cause deep emotional distress (which would, in all circumstances I can imagine, have ulterior [positive] effectual motives). If I said it, I would be well-aware of the effect, and not follow it up with something as dumb as 'you're too emotional, get over it'. It would almost certainly be in an effort to try to get them to wise the fuck up, and causing an emotional shock to their system, in order to provoke a 'waking up' moment, would be its intent, so I just don't see how her father's combination of statements could ever be a justifiable thing to say. Well, unless you're an emotional fucking retard."

 

[Spamtar]

My INTJ father... he will say all kinds of shitty, offensive things haha...but owns it.

Now my experience with xNTPs is very different. I mean I haven't put it all together in my mind...but I guess what I can say is it often appears to me...that when an xNTP says something offensive and you call them on it...there is an immediate claim of 'innocence' (often followed by what feels like the xNTP turns your argument around on you)...which often leaves me baffled. ENTPs can start to remind me of the character of Harold Skimpole in Bleak House...in where I get the sense that they truly understand what is going on...but are capable of manipulating the situation by claiming 'innocence'.

I think that xNTPs are sometimes not willing to own some vague inference they make, when someone tries to nail them to it, (at least not until they feel the time is choice) this because often we are thinking multiple things at the same time in a reference like the legs of an octopus.

We sometimes want to see where the conversation will swirl to so decide what choice we meant in retrospect.

Similar to Humpty Dumpty's mindset when he responds:

“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”
“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.”'

 

[kyli_ryan]

I hate how much I love them!

 

[PeaceBaby]

For example, I have an ENFP friend who is married to a police officer. Her husband teaches a group of teenage kids who want to eventually become cops. The discussion went off topic and into clubs. I said, "I was in the debate club. No one in the club became a cop." She hears, "I think that debate club kids are really smart, and kids who want to become cops aren't intelligent enough to be a debater." I was quite taken aback, especially considering that her husband and I are friends. This led to a very long discussion about her feelings, which she prompty dropped when she became distracted.

Frankly, I would be wondering too what made you say that. What Ne jump did you just make here? What connection are you trying to imply? And why even say that ... you realize this is a conversation-stopper because it doesn't seem to make any sense at all unless you're trying to say something without "saying" it.

Likewise, everything is connected. In a big pattern of information. I mean…perhaps you are/were completely innocent and ignorant of ‘the seemingly commonly held opinion’ that ‘all cops are working-class, donut-eating, idiot-assholes’ (Juice's illustration)…and ‘all members of the debate club go on to become part of the 1%’ < --- but I’m going to go out on a limb here and say she probably didn’t think you were. Like I stated earlier…she will be naturally inclined to assign a reason to why you said what you said (there are no accidents)…and that reason will be based-off of the patterns she sees around her…and the pattern of behavior she has come to expect from you. And by the latter I mean…if anything you have ever said before (lol)…hints at some sort of ‘intellectual superiority’…it will have an accumulation effect…and she will react to that (as well)

That would be the background machination for me as well.

Frankly, I read negative things into your comment as well. My first thought was, "She's saying cops are stupid." I really don't think it's the fault of the ENFP. I hear this kind of stuff from INTPs all the time (Fi users projecting onto INTPs' comments things that [supposedly] aren't really there), so much so that it makes me wonder whether it's really the Fi user projecting things onto the INTPs' comments, or the INTP being so fucking clueless about their own subconscious emotions/intentions that they say genuinely offensive things spurred on by subconscious emotions/intentions that they are simply completely out of touch with/unaware of/do not understand.

I've concluded it's primarily the latter (at least 60-70% of the time).

INTP's seem to very much underestimate the effect of emotion (their own and others) in decision-making. As a listener, when I hear something that makes my ears perk up, like that little sentence shared so kindly by herbpixie, I have found it useful to take a step back and clarify what the message really is before jumping to defend. Sometimes that defuses it too ... when an INTP realizes their little snarky "comment" didn't go unnoticed ..... and may now cause a social problem.

When they hit their forties, many INTP's seem to be really exploring Fe, IME. My brother is a fine example of it; you'd think this "people stuff" was a whole new world ... He even called my Mom for Mother's Day this year ... what a shock!

 

[MacGuffin]

I've concluded it's primarily the former (at least 60-70% of the time).

FYP

 

[herbpixie]

Frankly, I read negative things into your comment as well. My first thought was, "She's saying cops are stupid." I really don't think it's the fault of the ENFP. I hear this kind of stuff from INTPs all the time (Fi users projecting onto INTPs' comments things that [supposedly] aren't really there), so much so that it makes me wonder whether it's really the Fi user projecting things onto the INTP's comments, or the INTP being so fucking clueless about their own subconscious emotions/intentions that they say genuinely offensive things spurred on by subconscious emotions/intentions that they simply are completely out of touch with/unaware of/do not understand.

I do not have this problem with any other type, which may be why you hear this a lot from INTPs. I'm a bit older, and I'm female, so I have a better handle on my emotions and intentions than some INTPs. I also find it weird that, without knowing me or the other person at all, you assume I'm subconsciously judging rather than believing me when I gave the reason behind why I followed the debate comment with the cop comment. I happen to think the guy is quite intelligent. I suppose the weird thing to me is that the ENFP would think I'd hang out with them if I didn't like them. If I have a negative opinion of someone, I don't become their friend. The funny thing to me is that every ENFP who has heard this scenario has read something negative into it, while other INTP friends who have heard the scenario thinks the ENFP was overreacting and projecting. It's a very odd disconnect to me.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Here is an ENFP who everyone hates that ruined Star Wars!

 

[Zarathustra]

I do not have this problem with any other type, which may be why you hear this a lot from INTPs. I'm a bit older, and I'm female, so I have a better handle on my emotions and intentions than some INTPs. I also find it weird that, without knowing me or the other person at all, you assume I'm subconsciously judging rather than believing me when I gave the reason behind why I followed the debate comment with the cop comment. I happen to think the guy is quite intelligent. I suppose the weird thing to me is that the ENFP would think I'd hang out with them if I didn't like them. If I have a negative opinion of someone, I don't become their friend. The funny thing to me is that every ENFP who has heard this scenario has read something negative into it, while other INTP friends who have heard the scenario thinks the ENFP was overreacting and projecting. It's a very odd disconnect to me.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but I'm an INTJ.

 

[PeaceBaby]

FYP

 

[Laurie]

Frankly, I read negative things into your comment as well. My first thought was, "She's saying cops are stupid." I really don't think it's the fault of the ENFP. I hear this kind of stuff from INTPs all the time (Fi users projecting onto INTPs' comments things that [supposedly] aren't really there), so much so that it makes me wonder whether it's really the Fi user projecting things onto the INTPs' comments, or the INTP being so fucking clueless about their own subconscious emotions/intentions that they say genuinely offensive things spurred on by subconscious emotions/intentions that they are simply completely out of touch with/unaware of/do not understand.

No, no, ENFPs are good with reading every human OTHER than INTPs, obviously. That makes the most sense. I bet it's because INTPs are super human. And they are all just like Einstein, too.

 

[herbpixie]

Frankly, I would be wondering too what made you say that. What Ne jump did you just make here? What connection are you trying to imply? And why even say that ... you realize this is a conversation-stopper because it doesn't seem to make any sense at all unless you're trying to say something without "saying" it.

I explained that earlier in the thread. It wasn't a Ne jump. It was a statement of clarification. In other words, we were no longer discussing cops. The conversation had moved to clubs. The previous speaker had combined the two topics.

 

[Laurie]

Frankly, I read negative things into your comment as well. My first thought was, "She's saying cops are stupid." I really don't think it's the fault of the ENFP. I hear this kind of stuff from INTPs all the time (Fi users projecting onto INTPs' comments things that [supposedly] aren't really there), so much so that it makes me wonder whether it's really the Fi user projecting things onto the INTPs' comments, or the INTP being so fucking clueless about their own subconscious emotions/intentions that they say genuinely offensive things spurred on by subconscious emotions/intentions that they are simply completely out of touch with/unaware of/do not understand.

No, no, ENFPs are good with reading every human OTHER than INTPs, obviously. That makes the most sense. I bet it's because INTPs are super human. And they are all just like Einstein, too.

 

[herbpixie]

I'm not sure if you noticed, but I'm an INTJ.

Nope--sorry. Thread exploded, and I'm trying to catch up. My point stands, though. It doesn't happen with any other type with me.