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[Fi] The INTJ Fi Demand

Kalach

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This is going to be an odd topic because it's about the tertiary and it's hard to nail that sucker into place. I can't quite tell if I'll be over-stating the case, or under-stating it, or choosing drama because the very simplicity of the tertiary makes it call out for overblown expression. Nonetheless...

It seems like it might make sense, the idea of the supreme pragmatist having a quite simple, but rigid moral code. It seems we are for the most part quite permissive, but at the core there's definitely some rules about what other people can and cannot do with respect to us. And when those lines are crossed, the person who crossed the line IS WRONG!! In a complete and quite encompassing way, that person is known to be wrong, quite wrong, and will be treated as such. I don't think we particularly seek revenge, for that often takes too long and exhausts the demand for simple moral rectitude. Rather we excise people, remove them from our consideration. Or we aim to.

The INTJ Fi Demand is that others will know our brand of right from wrong or they will not be considered objects of our true concern.


What say you guys?






Disclaimer: I really couldn't tell which section to post this in. If there is an INTJ Demand that We Be Respected and its source is the tertiary, then making it available for open discussion will automatically provoke some defensiveness. So, should I choose a potentially safe though demanding haven where there might be hugz too, or should I choose the cold hard light of other NT assessment knowing full well that they have their own simple-minded, likely unacknowledged feeling demands making then about as expert on feeling as I am? So I said, screw it, whatever, post.

Signed,

K. Pantywaist.
 

Kalach

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And then I discovered I'd posted it in the NT forum and couldn't delete it and move to the NF forum. Alas, cruel world.
 

poppy

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It seems like it might make sense, the idea of the supreme pragmatist having a quite simple, but rigid moral code. It seems we are for the most part quite permissive, but at the core there's definitely some rules about what other people can and cannot do with respect to us. And when those lines are crossed, the person who crossed the line IS WRONG!! In a complete and quite encompassing way, that person is known to be wrong, quite wrong, and will be treated as such. I don't think we particularly seek revenge, for that often takes too long and exhausts the demand for simple moral rectitude. Rather we excise people, remove them from our consideration. Or we aim to.

The INTJ Fi Demand is that others will know our brand of right from wrong or they will not be considered objects of our true concern.


What say you guys?

This sounds accurate on at least some level. Outwardly, I don't really hold people to any moral code, but internally I do measure them against my own standard of morality. Actually, I'm always surprised to find that people think I'm very judgmental of their lifestyles (I didn't think they knew!).

But I feel like Fi also has softer, different demands because of it's childlike nature. Maybe that's just me? I feel like my Fi has a sort of fondness for nostalgia and the familiar.

Oh, and here's a hug :hug:
 

Athenian200

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I've mostly seen it manifest as them accusing their opponent of "immaturity." The idea of basing an arguments validity on the "maturity" of the person making it is very, very Fi.
 

SciVo

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If I understand correctly, the INTJ Fi demand will make itself most strongly felt when the situation requires that you use your E, and your Ni doesn' wanna. So, it'll turn to tertiary Fi for support against your Te, and your crass, barely-processed Fi material will come spewing forth: on the one hand volatile subjective experiences of strong emotions, and on the other hand idiosyncratic demands of a personal moral code.

But that's just one interpretation.
 

poppy

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If I understand correctly, the INTJ Fi demand will make itself most strongly felt when the situation requires that you use your E, and your Ni doesn' wanna. So, it'll turn to tertiary Fi for support against your Te, and your crass, barely-processed Fi material will come spewing forth: on the one hand volatile subjective experiences of strong emotions, and on the other hand idiosyncratic demands of a personal moral code.

But that's just one interpretation.

Hm, see the idea of tertiary temptation makes sense to me, but I've never been able to observe it in myself. Not to say it doesn't happen to me, but I really couldn't describe it well.

I think I read somewhere that tertiary Fi was characterized by dismissing an idea or situation because it it "impure" and belongs to other people, therefore making it not the INTJ's fault.
 

Rhapsody

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I'm not sure this is what you're talking about, but here I go with some anecdotal stuff anyway:

My mom is an INTJ and she used to have very rigid expectations about how she thought others should treat her. She's mellowed out a lot in recent years, but in her own words, she used to be very unforgiving. If someone offended her (she had no tolerance for people teasing her), or disrespected her, or if she thought someone was using her (she always thought people were using her even when they weren't) then she'd, at best, have an angry outburst, and at worst she'd cut off all contact with the other person. I've seen her throw temper tantrums (literal temper tantrums) when she thought someone had crossed the line with her. (I have a friend who has an INTJ sister, and her sister also does the temper tantrum thing.) And if my mom cuts someone off, she always leaves it up to the other person to reestablish the relationship; she never reaches out herself, and from what I can see on the outside, she never seems to care that she's lost them.

In general, my mom used to be very black and white. Basically what you said here:

And when those lines are crossed, the person who crossed the line IS WRONG!! In a complete and quite encompassing way, that person is known to be wrong, quite wrong, and will be treated as such.

Although she's quite flexible when coming up with solutions to say, fixing the VCR, when dealing with people, they were either on her good side or in the shit hole.

One of my best friends is also an INTJ, and she has extremely EXTREMELY strong morals and gets worked up into a Batman-like righteous rage whenever she sees other people violating those morals. She's always talking about how she hates humanity because of all the horrible things humans do to each other (and yes, really, she's a tested INTJ, not an NF!) I swear, one day she's going to become a vigilante.

(Also, I didn't mean this to be an anti-INTJ rant! I love INTJs, and my mom and my friend's sister are the only ones I know of who seem to be a bit on the crazy side.)
 

poppy

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One of my best friends is also an INTJ, and she has extremely EXTREMELY strong morals and gets worked up into a Batman-like righteous rage whenever she sees other people violating those morals. She's always talking about how she hates humanity because of all the horrible things humans do to each other (and yes, really, she's a tested INTJ, not an NF!) I swear, one day she's going to become a vigilante.

(Also, I didn't mean this to be an anti-INTJ rant! I love INTJs, and my mom and my friend's sister are the only ones I know of who seem to be a bit on the crazy side.)

Lol! I love this.

I try to keep my Batman rage under control, but I've been known to get a little self righteous. (And the cutting people off thing, 100% true for me)
 

Athenian200

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I thought being self-righteous or holding people to moral codes was a (negative) NF thing? :huh:

I've never seen INTJs as having any purity concerns... they often seem content to be rather crass about things, and to tolerate such from others.

I can see it manifesting as selfish demands or criticisms of a person's lack of willpower, but hardly an actual moral code.
 

poppy

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I thought being self-righteous or holding people to moral codes was a (negative) NF thing? :huh:

I've never seen INTJs as having any purity concerns... they often seem content to be rather crass about things, and to tolerate such from others.

I can see it manifesting as selfish demands or criticisms of a person's lack of willpower, but hardly an actual moral code.

INTJs are the NFs of the NTs :D

But seriously. You use your tertiary Ti a fair amount, right? You're human (presumably) and need to function via both thinking and feeling. Doesn't make you an NT. Generally speaking, INTJs are pretty human and most of us do make use of our Fi.

As for moral codes, if you haven't realized that INTJs have them, you need to spend some more time with us. It's not a "oh my goodness don't say that kind of joke you might offend someone" moral code, it's more about principles.
 

Orangey

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I thought being self-righteous or holding people to moral codes was a (negative) NF thing? :huh:

I've never seen INTJs as having any purity concerns... they often seem content to be rather crass about things, and to tolerate such from others.

I can see it manifesting as selfish demands or criticisms of a person's lack of willpower, but hardly an actual moral code.

Really? I've always seen INTJs as a little inter-personally terse (bordering on what most would consider rude), but not crass. I've always thought that they seemed to be a fairly principled bunch.
 

SciVo

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I thought being self-righteous or holding people to moral codes was a (negative) NF thing? :huh:

That's because of our F, which leads to the OP's question: what happens when INTJs' tertiary Fi demands to be expressed?
 

Lethe

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I'll write a longer post another day, and therefore, to state the short version of it:

- It causes me to want to 'purify' my emotions/intentions by my idealistic internal standards.
- An inflexible sense of morality... like Batman's or Christian Bale's character in 3:10 to Yuma.
- Like Poppy, I only expect myself to live up to them.
- Yet can be dismissive of people who hold the opposing morals. (A long time ago.)
- Used to be very black and white as Rhapsody's mom was.
- Indulging in self-criticism when the moral code is not met.

- Sometimes whimsical, volatile, idealistic, fluffy and child-like.
- Desires that Te cooperates with it: personal interests and integrity.
- Empathetic: directly feels the emotions of others.
- Very accepting of other's emotions. Doesn't care for controlling them.
- Nurturing. Forgiving.

- Passionate; fuels my ambition and energizes Te's Get-It-Done mode.
- Contradictory: High-spirited and melancholic; mature and immature.
- Always knows what it wants. Goals must reflect this desire.

INTJs are the NFs of the NTs

Haha. True. :doh: :laugh:

Just ask them about their principles. ;)

Paul V from INTJf said:
I found this test and I was curious to see if INTJs were as moral as I was (and I'm disgustingly ethical. Really).

Oh, you are not alone. :violin:
 

Athenian200

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INTJs are the NFs of the NTs :D

But seriously. You use your tertiary Ti a fair amount, right? You're human (presumably) and need to function via both thinking and feeling. Doesn't make you an NT. Generally speaking, INTJs are pretty human and most of us do make use of our Fi.

Oh, yeah. Human, definitely. You guys definitely have feelings, but I've always seen them as being more about weird poetic stuff and emotional depth, not really about right and wrong.

You might be more human than me... remember, I relate to C3-P0, the protocol droid. ;)
As for moral codes, if you haven't realized that INTJs have them, you need to spend some more time with us. It's not a "oh my goodness don't say that kind of joke you might offend someone" moral code, it's more about principles.

Principles? You mean like logic and mathematical axioms? :huh:

What I mean is, INTJs don't seem at all averse to cursing, slang, wearing outlandish clothing, or making inappropriate comments. I don't see how someone like that could be considered to have a moral code. It's not unforgivable, but I still find it tacky enough that I wouldn't want to be seen with such a person.

Really? I've always seen INTJs as a little inter-personally terse (bordering on what most would consider rude), but not crass. I've always thought that they seemed to be a fairly principled bunch.

You know, this is why I once joked that F stands for "Formal" and T stands for "Terse." :laugh:

Where are these "principles" INTJs have? I don't see or understand them. Any concrete examples of when they might come into play?
 

SuperFob

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Where are these "principles" INTJs have? I don't see or understand them. Any concrete examples of when they might come into play?
The goal in life is to make the most optimal contributions to society you can. If you fail to do so, you are an inefficient human being.
 

poppy

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Principles? You mean like logic and mathematical axioms? :huh:

What I mean is, INTJs don't seem at all averse to cursing, wearing outlandish clothing, or making inappropriate comments. I don't see how someone like that could be considered to have a moral code. It's not unforgivable, but I still find it tacky enough that I wouldn't want to be seen with such a person.

My brain just broke. Inappropriate comments and dressing weird=immoral?

:wacko:

Fi principles tend to be highly individual, and in a tertiary position they're not that visible (Fi is hard enough to track down as it is). You probably never will actually see them, as they tend to be expressed in very unassuming ways. But to us, they're a driving force.

Alright, so the only way I can go into this is to talk about my own moral compass (bear with me, it's not something I put into words much).

The big one is responsibility. It covers a lot of things. I make no excuses. I aspire to recognize when something is my fault and do what I can to make reparations. This might not make sense to you, but making reparations doesn't necessarily involve verbally saying sorry. I am far more likely to go behind the scenes and try to correct the damage, or to do something nice for the person I've offended. I despise cheap excuses and "just words" apologies, and I don't really like to receive them either. I feel that it is immoral to try to pass blame on. I am likely to actually take responsibility for things that are only partly my fault if I have to choose between admitting fault or not. The thing is, I'm able to do this because I am not afraid that all of my chances at success in a venture will be ruined by accepting blame. Also, when I make a mistake, I feel that I deserve to pay for it and I accept consequences without complaint. To not do this would be against my morals.

The second would be honesty. I'm a terrible liar. When I know something is one way, I can't bring myself to try to convince someone of an untruth. When I see others willfully lie and manipulate for their own gain, I think it nothing short of despicable. An example of this would be an old friend of mine (INFJ, actually) who had no qualms about lying to his mother, to the movie theater clerk, anyone. He'd lie about anything if it meant he could get what he wanted. He was very kind and sweet most of the time, but that side of him made me sick. Even when I see that kind of behavior in a lesser degree, I look down on it.

Sometimes I feel like I'm playing the game by different rules than everyone else. There are a lot of people who don't have problems doing things that I find contemptible, but I am just not capable of operating on that level (there might be exceptions, but they would be very, very few).


Wooo long post on morality.

EDIT:
The goal in life is to make the most optimal contributions to society you can. If you fail to do so, you are an inefficient human being.
Haha, ok, you meant that as kind of a snide remark. That's chill. But if I could put it in a way that an INTJ (well not any INTJ, just me) might actually feel about it?

The goal in life is to give back what you owe to those who deserve it. If you can do more, you should do more. You shouldn't squander your talents and abilities, whatever they are, you should try to make something of your life because to not do so would be a waste.

So uh...basically what you said.
 

SuperFob

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Haha, ok, you meant that as kind of a snide remark. That's chill. But if I could put it in a way that an INTJ (well not any INTJ, just me) might actually feel about it?
It was a quote right out of my INTJ dad's mouth.
 

Lethe

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Where are these "principles" INTJs have? I don't see or understand them. Any concrete examples of when they might come into play?

They are rather embarrassing for me to share in a public forum. Just think of the selfless Goody Two-Shoes (minus the society) who always tries to make the morally right choices despite unfavorable circumstances, and you should nail it. [Sample characters who reflect my morality: Atticus Finch from To Kill a Mocking Bird; Mr. Darcy from Pride & Prejudice; Batman; Remus Lupin from Harry Potter; Dan Evans from 3:10 to Yuma.)

But I greatly thank Poppy for taking the bullet. ;)

I second her entire post as usual. :D

My brain just broke. Inappropriate comments and dressing weird=immoral?

:wacko:

Fi principles tend to be highly individual, and in a tertiary position they're not that visible (Fi is hard enough to track down as it is). You probably never will actually see them, as they tend to be expressed in very unassuming ways. But to us, they're a driving force.

[...]My own moral compass (bear with me, it's not something I put into words much).

:nice:

[I don't need the whole world to know that I'm moral. I just need to know that I'm moral. My Fi is always behind-the-scenes incorporating compassion into my decisions. So I may secretly help someone out and then leave the scenery before they arrive or notice.]
 
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