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  1. #41
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    Out of a bursting frustration, I have said those lines before to my parents, teammates, and anyone messing around with the efficiency.

    I might as well paste a "I agree with Poppy" quote in my signature now.

    I'd be saying "I agree with Lethe" but I happen to get to a lot of topics first

    Somehow I think thescientist would agree: she writes how she feels her ENFP co-worker should 'man up' and cut the BS with some honesty for once.
    I wonder...how offensive do people find comments like these? I'm curious just how bad Fi acting out is, on average. I mean, we do essentially invalidate the whims and feelings of those we say them to...or does it just make us look ridiculous/silly/like slavedrivers?
    "There's no need to be embarrassed about it, Mr. Spock. It happens to the birds and the bees!"

  2. #42
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppy View Post
    Immeasurably!

    Of course there are exceptions, but I find it easier on average to associate with men as they're more frequently conditioned/encouraged to possess traits I prefer in friends
    Really? What do you find easier about getting along with men?

  3. #43
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppy View Post

    I'd be saying "I agree with Lethe" but I happen to get to a lot of topics first
    And thanks for saving everyone else's time and energy!

    Quote Originally Posted by poppy View Post
    I wonder...how offensive do people find comments like these? I'm curious just how bad Fi acting out is, on average. I mean, we do essentially invalidate the whims and feelings of those we say them to...or does it just make us look ridiculous/silly/like slavedrivers?
    They'd probably think we're self-righteous pricks with a permanent stick up our arse.

    You know, typical feedback.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  4. #44
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    They'd probably think we're self-righteous pricks with a permanent stick up our arse.

    You know, typical feedback.
    Trust me, what they think about Te isn't much better. It can easily make people think, "Wow, what a condescending, arrogant person! They think that calm aura and unruffled choice of words hides their lack of humility? It's so obvious they think they're above this situation. They should just leave us alone if they feel that way, let people who care handle it. Who do they think they are, shoving their nose into something they don't really care about in the first place? No one asked them to step in and handle things, they should just mind their own business if that's how they feel."

    I do have to admit that when I encounter TJs in a group, this is often how I feel towards them (though I'd never say it).

  5. #45
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Trust me, what they think about Te isn't much better. It can easily make people think, "Wow, what a condescending, arrogant person! They think that calm aura and unruffled choice of words hides their lack of humility? It's so obvious they think they're above this situation. They should just leave us alone if they feel that way, let people who care handle it. Who do they think they are, shoving their nose into something they don't really care about in the first place? No one asked them to step in and handle things, they should just mind their own business if that's how they feel."

    I do have to admit that when I encounter TJs in a group, this is often how I feel towards them (though I'd never say it).
    Really? That's fairly generous compared to what I've heard. (Seriously.)

    The main concern would be getting the TJ to care about what the others think. Just mention the word 'productive' (if they're working with you) and that should set things in order. They can't ignore those opinions when they need the cooperation of other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Really? What do you find easier about getting along with men?
    The less-convoluted social etiquette.

    And if you did something wrong, they'll tell you upfront and figuratively punch you in the face for it. You always know where you stand with them, and the location of their emotional minefields.

    With women, in general, you have to 'figure' it out. If you don't, then enjoy being back-stabbed in a hundred different directions. Oh, and confrontations are a major no-no.

    /50% sarcasm, 50% truth.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  6. #46
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
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    I think I finally understand what was going on here:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...tml#post810815

    At first I was all "WTF INTJs can't be idealistic and have morals?" but now I see that it's a different emphasis on what, exactly, is moral. The Fe/Fi divide seems huge. I'll be the first to admit that my Fe is withered away, shriveled up. But I have a strong tertiary Fi that affects everything that I do.

    I'd say that things like holding the door open for others (I'm female, so it's not "expected" of me) and offering to buy coffee are things that I do not to be "nice", but because it would be gracious and comes in line with my belief that I should do what I can do. But I justify it saying that "it's along the way, and it would be more efficient".

    Similarly, my need to help people comes out of my philosophy that the world is intrinsically meaningless, so (to quote Angel) "if nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do". It may be nihilistic but it sure is moral. What comes out of it isn't the effect on others, but that you personally tried your best.

    I don't judge people based on what others expect of them. I judge them based on what I personally expect. I expect my students to turn up to tutorials if they have questions, hand in their reports on time and to come into class prepared. That, to me, is what makes a "good" student. I don't care if they're friendly or polite. If they fail in meeting my expectations, I automatically extrapolate that to mean that they're lazy, don't care about learning, and/or are stupid as trolls. Pretty black/white morality, and definitely a facet of my tertiary Fi. To me, the worst assessment that I could give someone is "lacks professionalism and integrity" (which more or less is the same thing to me).

    As such, my expectations of myself are pretty high. Not because I'm afraid of what others will think of me, but because of what I'd think of myself.

  7. #47
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppy View Post
    I'm guilty of telling people things like "man up!" (a little odd coming from a female, I admit, but it conveys the right idea) or "stop being such a drama queen!".

    That makes sense in the case of Fi prejudice acting under Te desire for efficiency As in, "I don't have time for your moral or personal dilemmas right now".

    Question..I have this tendency when I use Te myself, and it drives me bonkers. My Fi kinda demands from me to give people the benefit of the doubt and give them the time they need to express themselves, before I judge them. But when pressured and doing something in Te mode, I tend to get this reaction extremely quickly.

    You seem to really consider this a default mode. How do you experience it? I personally hate feeling like that and would do anything to avoid it, which..basically means not using Te or disengaging it when talking to people. But how do you handle this, since Te is more present than Fi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    The less-convoluted social etiquette.

    And if you did something wrong, they'll tell you upfront and figuratively punch you in the face for it. You always know where you stand with them, and location of the emotional minefields.

    With women, in general, you have to 'figure' it out. If you don't, then enjoy being back-stabbed in a hundred different directions. Oh, and confrontations are a major no-no.

    /50% sarcasm, 50% truth.
    Agreed
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #48
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    Really? That's fairly generous compared to what I've heard. (Seriously.)

    The main concern would be getting the TJ to care about what the others think. Just mention the word 'productive' (if they're working with you) and that should set things in order. They can't ignore those opinions when they need the cooperation of other people.
    I'll try that next time... but I'm not good with confronting people I'm not close to, and might not be able to do that. I usually just swallow it rather than say anything. I'm not willing to withdraw my cooperation and make a scene just because I don't appreciate their behavior, even if I resent what they're doing.

    After all, I am a J, and I'm willing to be silent in order to get the project over with as quickly as possible, even if I end up resenting the people I'm working with, and never wanting to work with them again in the process.

    The less-convoluted social etiquette.

    And if you did something wrong, they'll tell you upfront and figuratively punch you in the face for it. You always know where you stand with them, and location of the emotional minefields.

    With women, in general, you have to 'figure' it out. If you don't, then enjoy being back-stabbed in a hundred different directions. Oh, and confrontations are a major no-no.
    I haven't noticed that women use convoluted social etiquette... maybe they just do it with each other, and I haven't noticed because I haven't really been involved in their groups, thus they had no expectations of me? Hmm... I'm going to have to watch for that.

    Well, I do hate confrontation, so that seems compassionate enough. That's one good thing about women. The backstabbing thing sounds kind of cruel, though... I mean, they should try to give you the benefit of the doubt when you don't see that you're doing something wrong. You could just have different values, or be from another part of the country where they don't have the same expectations and thus be unaware of how you're being perceived. They should put some effort into making you see what you're doing before hurting you over it.

    Jumping to conclusions about people and acting on them as if they were true isn't very nice or fair. But I suppose everyone does it once in a while... at least I hope so, otherwise that makes me an exceptionally bad person, because I've done that before.

  9. #49
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Question..I have this tendency when I use Te myself, and it drives me bonkers. My Fi kinda demands from me to give people the benefit of the doubt and give them the time they need to express themselves, before I judge them. But when pressured and doing something in Te mode, I tend to get this reaction extremely quickly.

    You seem to really consider this a default mode. How do you experience it? I personally hate feeling like that and would do anything to avoid it, which..basically means not using Te or disengaging it when talking to people. But how do you handle this, since Te is more present than Fi?
    Bolded: I know exactly how that goes.

    To avoid the passionate response, I would make their idle wishy-washiness and my personal discomfort a part of the plan. If I could mentally prepare myself beforehand, I am less likely to respond in such anger.

    "We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld

    Francois' right in this situation. Overall, I frequently calculate and control my emotions because I absolutely do not want them to interfere with the ultimate purpose. I've already decided what type of feelings (while choosing my goals) I would allow when I implement them.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  10. #50
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    Bolded: I know exactly how that goes.

    To avoid the passionate response, I would make their idle wishy-washiness and my personal discomfort a part of the plan. If I could mentally prepare myself beforehand, I am less likely to respond in such anger.

    "We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld

    Francois' right in this situation.
    Makes sense...I have this mostly when I'm at work. So lately, I've been going into work, consciously aware of the fact that I *will* be interrupted and I cannot get annoyed at hte fact that I dunno how long their intermezzo will keep me from my work and therefore I might not finish it. When my collegues do come and bug me, I try to switch over to Fe....and back again when I'm alone. Kinda exhausting, but it keeps that trigger from going off. As you said, it's the worst when it's unexpected.

    I have one collegue who..helps me out but sometimes to do so she needs my computer. And she has a tendency to steal the thing when I'm two seconds away from my desk when I least expect it. And I *know* she's helping me, but the fact that she took over my desk makes me stand around and get worked up coz I cannot do anything without that computer. Worse even when they use my phone coz they happen to be at my desk when they remember to make a call, and they literally block my workspace so I cannot continue



    Anycase, sorry for the derail, back to the fascinating OP!
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

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