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  1. #31
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yes, that. That's the reason why I'd apologize.
    Yep, you lose me there.

    Right, those are the kind of situations I'd offer only an apology for. Because there was no real harm done, and I personally don't think I did anything really wrong. Thus, I don't really understand how I owe them anything, and an apology is the only thing I can think of to offer. Real harm is something I'd try to make up for with money or equivalent services.

    Well, I guess I see paying bills and appointments as promises, because I imagine what would happen if no one paid their bills, and the company went under. It's because I see the contract I have with the people I'm paying as being a promise... the most binding kind. That's really the only difference there. And I suppose I'd only consider being late to an appointment as immoral if I implicitly promised I'd be there... if I said, "there's a chance I might show up," and then didn't, I wouldn't consider it to be wrong.
    But we're essentially in agreement here

    So essentially INTJ morality operates outside the confines of politeness, which is why we come off as pretty terse and rude, but we take big breaches of ethics very seriously (especially if we're the perpetrators). That's also why I was shocked to find you thought we had no moral code.
    "There's no need to be embarrassed about it, Mr. Spock. It happens to the birds and the bees!"

  2. #32
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppy View Post

    So essentially INTJ morality operates outside the confines of politeness, which is why we come off as pretty terse and rude, but we take big breaches of ethics very seriously (especially if we're the perpetrators). That's also why I was shocked to find you thought we had no moral code.
    I guess the thing is, I take that kind of morality (the "don't harm" kind) for granted to such an extent that I would consider someone whose morality doesn't go beyond that to have no moral code. I consider what you call a "moral code" to be so basic that any remotely decent person, civilized or uncivilized, would recognize it. To me a moral code is what distinguishes civilized people from uncivilized ones... eh, maybe I just don't understand morality very well.

  3. #33
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppy View Post
    I think my sense of morality is really all or nothing.
    Yes, I'm personally not a fan of the middle-ground. Either I keep my actions tied into my morality, or simply have none.

    Quote Originally Posted by poppy View Post
    That makes sense enough. That was the lesson my mother always tried to teach me "if someone perceives what you have said as hurtful, you should apologize". I never got it. If I say something that I don't mean as hurtful, it's not my fault if someone is offended, as I wouldn't have said it if I didn't think it was in their best interest to hear it. I would consider this so insignificant as to not warrant apology.
    Again, same. I would not apologize for my words due to a misinterpretation of the meaning because I am unlikely to accept such a responsibility. I cannot be expected to not offend anyone (which typically happens by accident) at some point, and I also find it impractical to cater to every single sensitive whim. If apologizing happens to be the superior option, I may ask him/her for the things they deem as less offensive, and I would intend to correct this problem through my actions.

    But apologizing for something that violates my moral code?

    Sure.

    Though it doesn't always jive with the social group I'm interacting with. And I don't plan on changing my Fi so others could feel comforted by it anytime soon.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  4. #34
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    Again, same. I would not apologize for my words due a misinterpretation of the meaning because I am unlikely to accept such a responsibility. I cannot be expected to not offend anyone (which typically happens by accident) at some point, and I also find it impractical to cater to every single sensitive whim. If apologizing happens to be the superior option, I may ask him/her for the things they deem as less offensive, and I would intend to correct this problem through my actions.
    Yes, I'm with this. As much as I would like to be the kind of person who tries not to offend others by being brisk or harsh, that's a major part of the way that I operate and I can only curb it so much. I do value people's long term state of mind and feelings as I genuinely want them to be happy and confident people, but temporary feelings and bruised egos will always come second to what needs to be done.
    "There's no need to be embarrassed about it, Mr. Spock. It happens to the birds and the bees!"

  5. #35
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I've mostly seen it manifest as them accusing their opponent of "immaturity." The idea of basing an arguments validity on the "maturity" of the person making it is very, very Fi.
    This hints at the thing that had me thinking about an INTJ Fi Demand in the first place. See, by "demand" I'm meaning something directed out at other people. Fi makes demands of other people? Well no, technically it only makes a bunch of demands on the user. But in tertiary position it'll help be the origin of a collection of prejudices that get expressed in the workings of the higher functions, prejudices that the users may well stick by and require other people to fall in step with if they're to interact well.

    Demanding for example that other people be mature or be dismissed, like say telling someone "Oh, grow up!" when they're getting pissy about a perceived slight or they're expressing things I think are irrelevant to making things work, is--I speculate--something like the INTJ saying, "Stop fucking around, get your Fi in ORDER! Decide for yourself what is good--and be right about your decision--and then LET's GO! Or, hell, let's not go! Are you in or are you out! Try and know what you WANT, dammit!"

    There is of course in there a subtext. If the INTJ is demanding you get your Fi in order, then the INTJ has some simple ideas about what order will be. The INTJ is also assuming that Fi is the order of the day, that you have, use it, and will understand it.

    I think--just think--we don't do this to everyone. Just the people we interact with closely. Probably we do it to ourselves too.

  6. #36
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Demanding for example that other people be mature or be dismissed, like say telling someone "Oh, grow up!" when they're getting pissy about a perceived slight or they're expressing things I think are irrelevant to making things work, is--I speculate--something like the INTJ saying, "Stop fucking around, get your Fi in ORDER! Decide for yourself what is good--and be right about your decision--and then LET's GO! Or, hell, let's not go! Are you in or are you out! Try and know what you WANT, dammit!"
    I'm guilty of telling people things like "man up!" (a little odd coming from a female, I admit, but it conveys the right idea) or "stop being such a drama queen!".

    That makes sense in the case of Fi prejudice acting under Te desire for efficiency As in, "I don't have time for your moral or personal dilemmas right now".
    "There's no need to be embarrassed about it, Mr. Spock. It happens to the birds and the bees!"

  7. #37
    The Architect Alwar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppy View Post
    I'm guilty of telling people things like "man up!" (a little odd coming from a female, I admit, but it conveys the right idea) or "stop being such a drama queen!".

    That makes sense in the case of Fi prejudice acting under Te desire for efficiency As in, "I don't have time for your moral or personal dilemmas right now".
    Do you find it easier to be friends with males over females?

  8. #38
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alwar View Post
    Do you find it easier to be friends with males over females?
    Immeasurably!

    Of course there are exceptions, but I find it easier on average to associate with men as they're more frequently conditioned/encouraged to possess traits I prefer in friends
    "There's no need to be embarrassed about it, Mr. Spock. It happens to the birds and the bees!"

  9. #39
    The Architect Alwar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppy View Post
    Immeasurably!

    Of course there are exceptions, but I find it easier on average to associate with men as they're more frequently conditioned/encouraged to possess traits I prefer in friends
    I hear this so often that I sometimes wonder if any female likes other females lol.

  10. #40
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppy View Post
    I'm guilty of telling people things like "man up!" (a little odd coming from a female, I admit, but it conveys the right idea) or "stop being such a drama queen!".

    That makes sense in the case of Fi prejudice acting under Te desire for efficiency As in, "I don't have time for your moral or personal dilemmas right now".
    Out of a bursting frustration, I have said those lines before to my parents, teammates, and anyone messing around with the efficiency.

    I might as well paste a "I agree with Poppy" quote in my signature now.

    Somehow, I think thescientist would agree: she writes how she feels her ENFP co-worker should 'man up' and cut the BS with some honesty for once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It seems like it might make sense, the idea of the supreme pragmatist having a quite simple, but rigid moral code. It seems we are for the most part quite permissive, but at the core there's definitely some rules about what other people can and cannot do with respect to us. And when those lines are crossed, the person who crossed the line IS WRONG!! In a complete and quite encompassing way, that person is known to be wrong, quite wrong, and will be treated as such. I don't think we particularly seek revenge, for that often takes too long and exhausts the demand for simple moral rectitude. Rather we excise people, remove them from our consideration. Or we aim to.

    The INTJ Fi Demand is that others will know our brand of right from wrong or they will not be considered objects of our true concern.
    I couldn't respect my parents for a long time because they were on the conflicting spectrum what I considered morally correct. When I was younger, I expected them to 'man up' and openly live up to their decisions - right or wrong. I was angered that my mother imposed her emotional dilemmas on myself and my siblings, while my father could never admit his thoughtless choices that negatively affected the entire family. I would confront them on their 'faults' and to my utter disappointment, I received denials and deceptions. As you said above, I quickly removed them from my consideration (and trust). Yet even then, I knew I must keep the responsibility of paying back their efforts in raising me -- no matter how poorly they treated me in my time of dire need. My sense of morality doesn't operate on people's reactions to them.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

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