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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by SciVo View Post
    Meh. I don't buy it. I think it's a matter of directionality, not temporality. My understanding in a nutshell is that Fe judges itself by societal (or at least peer group) norms, and Fi judges society by self-generated idiosyncratic norms

    For example, I made a bad conservative when I thought I was one, since I was always disagreeing with inherited wisdom and social consensus. I'm full of original moral philosophies, which I've gradually realized isn't entirely normal. An ENFJ would probably be much better at conservatism than I was.
    My question would be, does nature know anything of society or philosophy? This is where I have the biggest problem with these definitions. They are obviously descriptive from what we know. Though, the underlying processes may still lead to these traits because of the direction they push a person to take. The big question seems to be, does the theory have anything to do with psychology and cognitive processes, or just the way they manifest as social traits?

    I think I get what you are saying now, though. Internal/external focus? But this is what I was addressing. I judge the things going on inside me: my world view, my memories, my theories, my knowledge, my feelings, etc. Fe seems to judge the social situation, behaviour, displayed emotions, etc. I might throw information out into the external world from what I learn from my judgments, but I don't really judge the external world situation directly (at least with an F).
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  2. #52
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SciVo View Post
    I doubt it. I can be very other-oriented, anticipating others' needs. It's just that I do so by creating unique personal values through solitary contemplation and then projecting them out instead of internalizing social norms and then projecting them out. I'm not necessarily right or wrong more often; but I'm right or wrong in more unusual, unexpected ways.
    Believe it or not, the bolded type is actually what I was trying to figure out how to illustrate. You just said it much better.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Believe it or not, the bolded type is actually what I was trying to figure out how to illustrate. You just said it much better.
    Yes, I agree. It has more to do with how values are formed rather than whether or not personal emotions are outwardly expressed through things like crying.

  4. #54
    Senior Member SciVo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    My question would be, does nature know anything of society or philosophy? This is where I have the biggest problem with these definitions. They are obviously descriptive from what we know. Though, the underlying processes may still lead to these traits because of the direction they push a person to take. The big question seems to be, does the theory have anything to do with psychology and cognitive processes, or just the way they manifest as social traits?
    Our psychology cannot develop healthily in isolation. Even many birds need to hear their species' song for their birdbrains to produce it correctly, and they're so much simpler. Our brains are essentially rationalization machines, constantly generating explanations for everything. As we necessarily develop in a social environment, it is unsurprising to me that some lean more heavily on external sources of meaning than others do.

    ETA: I'll have to contemplate your edit.
    INFP ~ Fi/Ne/Ni/Te ~ 9-2-4 sp/so

  5. #55
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    But your use of the word "control" belies the fact that you do suppress/repress emotions in the presence of other people.

    I never said that not making your emotions visible means that you're repressing them permanently (making them go away forever, never to feel them again). You're only repressing them temporarily so as not to make them visible to others. But there's still repression going on, even if you do visit your feelings again later in a safer, solitary environment. Don't tell me, as an INFP, that you've never cried to yourself before. Or felt the urge to paint or write or sing or dance your feelings away. Emotions demand expression, so when they're not expressed immediately (as in the case of an Fi user in the presence of others), it means that they're being repressed (held down, controlled).

    The fact that you do repress emotions around others doesn't mean that you're the type of person who tucks your feelings away somewhere deep inside your subconscious never to visit them again. I know that's the common meaning that we get when someone says, "he represses his emotions." But when we look at the act of keeping your emotions hidden from others, it is clear that this involves repression to a certain degree. It seems like you are hung up on the negative connotation of the word "repress."
    totally agree with that. i think i do repress them and control how they're expressed and deal with them on my own...i feel like it's my responsibility...i don't look for that outside myself often...when i do...it's more as a sounding board...talking things through until i understand how i feel about it.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #56
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Introverted feeling is judgement with an emotional slant that causes the individual to view the object on a Subjective level. It is primarily a silent inaccessible function that is difficult to conceptualize. Therefore, unlike its extraverted counterpart, Extraverted Feeling, it is entirely individualistic, with a leaning toward the mystical. Introverted feeling is generally disconnected with typical external stimuli. Introverted feeling is only concerned with the external to the extent that the object has some relevance to a deep, internal value. Its primary objective is to harmonize ideologies, concepts, relationships etc. with the internal guiding force.
    The bold part Would this count to prove a point?

  7. #57
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Introverted Feeling
    The introverted feeling function concerns itself with the values expressed in the archetypal aspect of situations, often relating to the actual situation by measuring it against an ideal. When the actual is found wanting, introverted feeling can become intensely disappointed. Although it often finds it hard to articulate its judgments, or simply prefers to keep them to itself, introverted feeling also tends to ignore social limits regarding the communication of critical responses, to the point of appearing to depreciate others. It may withhold positive feelings as insincere and fail to offer healing gestures to smooth over difficult situations. In its shadow aspect, introverted feeling becomes rageful, anxious, and sullen. It may withdraw all support for attitudes it has decided are simply wrong, even at the risk of rupturing relationship and agreed-upon standards of fellow-feeling.
    Same point, another source.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Same point, another source.
    Yep, I can be annoyingly perfectionist about things and not express unless I think it really says what I want it to or captures it.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by SciVo View Post
    Contemplation finished! The difference is that as an ENFP with dominant Ne, you rely even more on your perceptions than your judgments, and especially when dealing with the external world. My working hypothesis is that you use tight Ne/Fi teamwork for navigating social situations, and they work so well together that you mistook it for Fe.
    Interesting. Doesn't a perception still need to precede a judgment though? I've been thinking recently, is there a chance that we differ more in the tertiary function than anything? ie. I combine Ne and Fi, Ne and Te. You combine Ne and Fi, Si and Fi.

    How is Fi different as a dominant Fi?
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  10. #60
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    The bold part Would this count to prove a point?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Same point, another source.
    those were great..yep...just like that.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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