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[MBTI General] 4w5 ... 5w4?

Nyx

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I'm going to post this here because I'm primary interested in hearing responses from NFs or possibly NTs...



Can someone please help me understand the difference between these two...possibly giving example of how each would think/act...? They just seem so similar but I am sure there is something definite that separates them. I cannot find any substantial literature on the subject...
 

Sarcasticus

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I'm going to post this here because I'm primary interested in hearing responses from NFs or possibly NTs...



Can someone please help me understand the difference between these two...possibly giving example of how each would think/act...? They just seem so similar but I am sure there is something definite that separates them. I cannot find any substantial literature on the subject...

Well 5w4 usually equates to INTP and 4w5 usually relates to INFJ or sometimes INFP. I think 5s are basically logical beings and 4s are more emotional.
 

fill

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I ring up 5w4 on Enneagram tests, but I'm INFJ. I've also learned that I tend to use my Ti more than my Fe. I would propose that I'm INTP, but I'm way too J to be any sort of P.

The simple difference between the two is feelings vs logic. 4s, whether with a 3 or 5 wing, are described as emotional beings, while 5s use their logic more over their feelings.

I think 4w5s have a more 'dreamy' attribute to their self, while 5w4 is still very creative, but in a more logical sense. I suppose a good analogy would be Fantasy or Sci-Fi, however nerdy that sounds.
 

Edgar

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I think 4w5s have a more 'dreamy' attribute to their self, while 5w4 is still very creative, but in a more logical sense. I suppose a good analogy would be Fantasy or Sci-Fi, however nerdy that sounds.

I'm a 5w4 INTJ, and I heart sci fi. Fantasy is great too, but once it shifts into "unicorns and the power of love" gear, it gets too fruity for me.
 

Nyx

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I ring up 5w4 on Enneagram tests, but I'm INFJ. I've also learned that I tend to use my Ti more than my Fe. I would propose that I'm INTP, but I'm way too J to be any sort of P.

The simple difference between the two is feelings vs logic. 4s, whether with a 3 or 5 wing, are described as emotional beings, while 5s use their logic more over their feelings.

I think 4w5s have a more 'dreamy' attribute to their self, while 5w4 is still very creative, but in a more logical sense. I suppose a good analogy would be Fantasy or Sci-Fi, however nerdy that sounds.

I'm a 5w4 INTJ, and I heart sci fi. Fantasy is great too, but once it shifts into "unicorns and the power of love" gear, it gets too fruity for me.

I still can't decide... I love Sci-Fi and Fantasy... I've read/enjoyed more Sci-Fi though...
The extent of my fantasy loving is pretty much just LOTR and Harry Potter... anything else makes me want to die because of its overly whimsical and vomit inducing nature. Unless it's morbid/dark in some way I will hate it.

I love mythology though but I suppose that doesn't really count as fantasy because there's historical significance to it.

Can you be emotional and intellectual? Is that what a 4w5 is?
 

Sarcasticus

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Can you be emotional and intellectual? Is that what a 4w5 is?

I think so. A good example of a 4w5 is Edgar Allan Poe. He not only wrote poetry like The Raven, but also wrote short stories in other genres like Sci-Fi and adventure (The Gold Bug). He definitely had a logical mind that comes through in some of his stories.

FWIW I think the love of morbid/dark is kind of quintessentially 4w5. Although 5w4s can gravitate towards that too (e.g, Kubrick).
 

Kra

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Can you be emotional and intellectual? Is that what a 4w5 is?

Well, last I tested, I was a 4w5 INTJ.

It's interesting that you bring up this point. I find myself guided by somewhat emotional principles, not so much the emotions themselves. Yet, intellectual practices are my main mode of living within those principles.
 

phthalocyanine

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I think so. A good example of a 4w5 is Edgar Allan Poe. He not only wrote poetry like The Raven, but also wrote short stories in other genres like Sci-Fi and adventure (The Gold Bug). He definitely had a logical mind that comes through in some of his stories.

FWIW I think the love of morbid/dark is kind of quintessentially 4w5. Although 5w4s can gravitate towards that too (e.g, Kubrick).


agreed.

poe is a good example of 4w5 also because he is dark, but overall more romantic.

according to riso, tim burton is a 5w4 - romantic, but probably with more dark/tragic overtones. the 5 brings cynicism to the 4 romanticism.

i remember reading somewhere that 5w4 is supposed to romanticise the tragic and the twisted while the 4w5 simply finds something tragic or twisted within the romantic.
 

poppy

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i remember reading somewhere that 5w4 is supposed to romanticise the tragic and the twisted while the 4w5 simply finds something tragic or twisted within the romantic.

Oddly enough that sounds about right. I'm 5w4.

According to Enneagram 4s are driven by the need to seek out and create their identity, and 5s are driven by the need to be competent. It makes sense then that you could have NT 4s and NF 5s. Personally I think the only thing Enneagram does well is to highlight motivations, so choosing between them would likely be a matter of deciding which basic drive is most important to you, and the secondary one would be your wing. The whole business is pretty imprecise flexible.
 
S

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I'm not a big fan of fantasy either, but I have contempt for most sci-fi.
 

Edgar

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I'm not a big fan of fantasy either, but I have contempt for most sci-fi.

Well, a lot of sci fi, like many things in life, is bland and forgettable.

And, since its viewed as somewhat of a niche genre, a lot of producers are hesitant to spend good money on it. As a result you get shitty writers, shitty directors, and shitty production values. Like whenever I see the new Outer Limits, I want to throw a bottle at the TV.

But when its done right, it takes your breath away... some episodes of Firefly is a good example.
 

phthalocyanine

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what about philip k. dick, would be be a good example of a 5w4 writer, or is he a 1, or something else?
 

speculative

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The Riso/Hudson literature would illuminate the difference between the types and the wings. As Poppy said, type 4 is mainly about creating a unique identity, while type 5 is concerned with competence. To determine your type, I find it helpful to reference Riso/Hudson's theory of virtues and vices. For example, the vice of type 4 is envy while the vice of type 5 is avarice. (Avarice as Riso/Hudson describe it goes beyond greed to a kind of greed of self - I'd have to read that section again to describe it more in detail.) On the other hand, the virtue of type 4 is equinamity and the virtue of type 5 is detachment (nonattachment).

You can find a lot of profiles of the different Enneagram types online, so I would start with "Understanding the Enneagram" if you are looking for a good read that delves further into the Enneagram system. (It also has a good questionaire to find your type that is based on statements that describe each type rather than a test.) Personally, I find the Enneagram to be more helpful to me than the MBTI since the MBTI seems to describe a person's preferences and then stop there, failing to describe interactions in motion. The main difference between the Enneagram and other systems is that the Enneagram is a system in motion, so if you do not use that aspect of the system then you are missing 90% of the point of the Enneagram...

I seem to be 4w5, but I highly identify with type 5 also and sometimes wonder if I am not INTP/5w4. Although fairly certain of my type, I am open to this possibility...
 

Tiltyred

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4w5 is more emotionally heavy than 5w4.
 

Nyx

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agreed.

poe is a good example of 4w5 also because he is dark, but overall more romantic.

according to riso, tim burton is a 5w4 - romantic, but probably with more dark/tragic overtones. the 5 brings cynicism to the 4 romanticism.

i remember reading somewhere that 5w4 is supposed to romanticize the tragic and the twisted while the 4w5 simply finds something tragic or twisted within the romantic.

Ok, that makes sense...I think in this sense I would definitely gravitate towards 5w4... Can any one give some more clear examples (perhaps from literature/film) of the difference? The way I see it is that 5w4 see something romantic in morbid/sad/dark things (like Tim Burton) while 4w5 see romantic things as having a morbid/sad/dark element. Would Wuthering Heights be a good example of that?

I think I can see the difference between the two. The former is almost cynical, and the latter more emotional.

Also...
Fives, especially with the Four wing, sometimes mistype themselves as Fours. Such Fives recognize that they have strong emotions and don't identify with the often extremely cerebral portrait of type Five. But, Fives, unlike Fours, always retain some degree of discomfort when it comes to the expression of their emotional states. However much facility they may gain with it, the language of emotion is not their native tongue.



The Riso/Hudson literature would illuminate the difference between the types and the wings. As Poppy said, type 4 is mainly about creating a unique identity, while type 5 is concerned with competence. To determine your type, I find it helpful to reference Riso/Hudson's theory of virtues and vices. For example, the vice of type 4 is envy while the vice of type 5 is avarice. (Avarice as Riso/Hudson describe it goes beyond greed to a kind of greed of self - I'd have to read that section again to describe it more in detail.) On the other hand, the virtue of type 4 is equanimity and the virtue of type 5 is detachment (nonattachment).

When you say a kind of greed of self do you mean being introverted to a fault? I mean concentrating on developing yourself too much/ just focusing on yourself too much in general? That would make sense for a 5 because I feel like it's so much about understanding and building upon knowledge that it can become a vice...like you can't get out of yourself.

When we speak of virutes is that what each type strives to be?
Equanimity is defined as balance especially under stress... So I suppose 4s want to be emotionally balanced/have peace of mind and, and 5s ultimately want to be detached.

Interesting, both virtues relate to spirituality and enlightenment. It's like two means to the same end. I suppose the best way to find out which type you are is to decide which way you go about achieving this.

Equanimity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Detachment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

poppy

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When you say a kind of greed of self do you mean being introverted to a fault? I mean concentrating on developing yourself too much/ just focusing on yourself too much in general? That would make sense for a 5 because I feel like it's so much about understanding and building upon knowledge that it can become a vice...like you can't get out of yourself.


"Avarice manifests as the accumulation and conservation of resources - often knowledge, information, understanding, time, energy, or a sense of rationality. Taking direct action, putting oneself out there in the world on purpose, is often avoided or done sparingly because it may deplete the resources. (Direct application of knowledge or ideas in a realm that might render them useless or invalid might be an example of this.) Imagine a canoeist who, deeply frightened of being up the creek without a paddle, collects paddles, or perhaps makes some paddles from collected parts, stores them, but does not want to use them indiscriminately in case they break or get lost in the rushing stream.

Basic Fear: ‘Of being incompetent or useless’
In the canoe metaphor above, this would correspond to the dreaded proverbial situation of “being up the creek without a paddle.” The Five fears the possibility of being utterly broken and destroyed by the world, of not being able to cope, and believes that the hoarded, protected resources can prevent this and provide the capacity to cope.

Basic Desire: ‘To be capable’
Or, in the spirit of the canoe metaphor, “to always have a paddle” (and/or other ways of coping with the “up the creek” situation). The Five attempts to achieve the sense of being able to face whatever life brings him or her through the avarice/hoarding fixation of accumulating and conserving resources (”paddles”)."

http://www.enneagrambook.com/type5/
http://www.enneagrambook.com/type4/
 

Edgar

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what about philip k. dick, would be be a good example of a 5w4 writer, or is he a 1, or something else?

Philip K Dick would be a good example of a drug abusing schizophrenic... but a talented one.
 

Nyx

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"Avarice manifests as the accumulation and conservation of resources - often knowledge, information, understanding, time, energy, or a sense of rationality. Taking direct action, putting oneself out there in the world on purpose, is often avoided or done sparingly because it may deplete the resources. (Direct application of knowledge or ideas in a realm that might render them useless or invalid might be an example of this.) Imagine a canoeist who, deeply frightened of being up the creek without a paddle, collects paddles, or perhaps makes some paddles from collected parts, stores them, but does not want to use them indiscriminately in case they break or get lost in the rushing stream.

Basic Fear: ‘Of being incompetent or useless’
In the canoe metaphor above, this would correspond to the dreaded proverbial situation of “being up the creek without a paddle.” The Five fears the possibility of being utterly broken and destroyed by the world, of not being able to cope, and believes that the hoarded, protected resources can prevent this and provide the capacity to cope.

Basic Desire: ‘To be capable’
Or, in the spirit of the canoe metaphor, “to always have a paddle” (and/or other ways of coping with the “up the creek” situation). The Five attempts to achieve the sense of being able to face whatever life brings him or her through the avarice/hoarding fixation of accumulating and conserving resources (”paddles”)."

http://www.enneagrambook.com/type5/
http://www.enneagrambook.com/type4/

Thanks for the clarification poppy, the links helped a lot too.

This helps somewhat...
Type Correlations

For reference:

Five With a 4 Wing:
The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them.

When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Cliché of the "absentminded professor" applies especially to Fives with this wing.

Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls.
 

neptunesnet

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I'm a 5w4 INFP. At face value I seem like an NT, but to those who know me best I couldn't be anything other than an NF. I just happen to have a well-developed thinking function.
I do often experience duality when I'm in social settings, though. In some realms I'm so focused and single-minded that the intensity at which I concentrate scares people because it appears(I'm told) to be calculating or menacing while in other realms I'm so consumed by my emotions and express myself openly that no one thinks to even question my sincerity. It's strange and unnerving, I'm sure, for other people when watching my "madness" unfold, but I people-please enough so that not all of me is being exposed nor are too many people uncomfortable in my presence. :)
 

Nyx

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I'm a 5w4 INFP. At face value I seem like an NT, but to those who know me best I couldn't be anything other than an NF. I just happen to have a well-developed thinking function.
I do often experience duality when I'm in social settings, though. In some realms I'm so focused and single-minded that the intensity at which I concentrate scares people (I'm told) while in other realms I'm so consumed by my emotions that no one questions my sincerity. It's strange and unnerving, I'm sure, for other people to watch my "madness" unfold, but I people-please enough so that not all of me is being exposed or not too many people are uncomfortable in my presence. :)

I know exactly how that feels. Most people I meet/acquaintances who know Myers Briggs think I am NT as well. It is because we are both NFs with a well developed thinking function. Sometimes it makes you feel like you are crazy...the whole single minded thing (in regards to pursuits like knowledge and creative things) mixed with the emotional sincerity and depth. It is a pretty complex and definitely unusual combination. I wouldn't trade it for anything though. ;)
 
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