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Thread: 4w5 ... 5w4?

  1. #11
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I'm not a big fan of fantasy either, but I have contempt for most sci-fi.
    Well, a lot of sci fi, like many things in life, is bland and forgettable.

    And, since its viewed as somewhat of a niche genre, a lot of producers are hesitant to spend good money on it. As a result you get shitty writers, shitty directors, and shitty production values. Like whenever I see the new Outer Limits, I want to throw a bottle at the TV.

    But when its done right, it takes your breath away... some episodes of Firefly is a good example.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  2. #12
    #005645 phthalocyanine's Avatar
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    what about philip k. dick, would be be a good example of a 5w4 writer, or is he a 1, or something else?

  3. #13
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
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    The Riso/Hudson literature would illuminate the difference between the types and the wings. As Poppy said, type 4 is mainly about creating a unique identity, while type 5 is concerned with competence. To determine your type, I find it helpful to reference Riso/Hudson's theory of virtues and vices. For example, the vice of type 4 is envy while the vice of type 5 is avarice. (Avarice as Riso/Hudson describe it goes beyond greed to a kind of greed of self - I'd have to read that section again to describe it more in detail.) On the other hand, the virtue of type 4 is equinamity and the virtue of type 5 is detachment (nonattachment).

    You can find a lot of profiles of the different Enneagram types online, so I would start with "Understanding the Enneagram" if you are looking for a good read that delves further into the Enneagram system. (It also has a good questionaire to find your type that is based on statements that describe each type rather than a test.) Personally, I find the Enneagram to be more helpful to me than the MBTI since the MBTI seems to describe a person's preferences and then stop there, failing to describe interactions in motion. The main difference between the Enneagram and other systems is that the Enneagram is a system in motion, so if you do not use that aspect of the system then you are missing 90% of the point of the Enneagram...

    I seem to be 4w5, but I highly identify with type 5 also and sometimes wonder if I am not INTP/5w4. Although fairly certain of my type, I am open to this possibility...
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

  4. #14
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    4w5 is more emotionally heavy than 5w4.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by phthalocyanine View Post
    agreed.

    poe is a good example of 4w5 also because he is dark, but overall more romantic.

    according to riso, tim burton is a 5w4 - romantic, but probably with more dark/tragic overtones. the 5 brings cynicism to the 4 romanticism.

    i remember reading somewhere that 5w4 is supposed to romanticize the tragic and the twisted while the 4w5 simply finds something tragic or twisted within the romantic.
    Ok, that makes sense...I think in this sense I would definitely gravitate towards 5w4... Can any one give some more clear examples (perhaps from literature/film) of the difference? The way I see it is that 5w4 see something romantic in morbid/sad/dark things (like Tim Burton) while 4w5 see romantic things as having a morbid/sad/dark element. Would Wuthering Heights be a good example of that?

    I think I can see the difference between the two. The former is almost cynical, and the latter more emotional.

    Also...
    Fives, especially with the Four wing, sometimes mistype themselves as Fours. Such Fives recognize that they have strong emotions and don't identify with the often extremely cerebral portrait of type Five. But, Fives, unlike Fours, always retain some degree of discomfort when it comes to the expression of their emotional states. However much facility they may gain with it, the language of emotion is not their native tongue.


    Quote Originally Posted by speculative View Post
    The Riso/Hudson literature would illuminate the difference between the types and the wings. As Poppy said, type 4 is mainly about creating a unique identity, while type 5 is concerned with competence. To determine your type, I find it helpful to reference Riso/Hudson's theory of virtues and vices. For example, the vice of type 4 is envy while the vice of type 5 is avarice. (Avarice as Riso/Hudson describe it goes beyond greed to a kind of greed of self - I'd have to read that section again to describe it more in detail.) On the other hand, the virtue of type 4 is equanimity and the virtue of type 5 is detachment (nonattachment).
    When you say a kind of greed of self do you mean being introverted to a fault? I mean concentrating on developing yourself too much/ just focusing on yourself too much in general? That would make sense for a 5 because I feel like it's so much about understanding and building upon knowledge that it can become a vice...like you can't get out of yourself.

    When we speak of virutes is that what each type strives to be?
    Equanimity is defined as balance especially under stress... So I suppose 4s want to be emotionally balanced/have peace of mind and, and 5s ultimately want to be detached.

    Interesting, both virtues relate to spirituality and enlightenment. It's like two means to the same end. I suppose the best way to find out which type you are is to decide which way you go about achieving this.

    Equanimity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Detachment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  6. #16
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post

    When you say a kind of greed of self do you mean being introverted to a fault? I mean concentrating on developing yourself too much/ just focusing on yourself too much in general? That would make sense for a 5 because I feel like it's so much about understanding and building upon knowledge that it can become a vice...like you can't get out of yourself.

    "Avarice manifests as the accumulation and conservation of resources - often knowledge, information, understanding, time, energy, or a sense of rationality. Taking direct action, putting oneself out there in the world on purpose, is often avoided or done sparingly because it may deplete the resources. (Direct application of knowledge or ideas in a realm that might render them useless or invalid might be an example of this.) Imagine a canoeist who, deeply frightened of being up the creek without a paddle, collects paddles, or perhaps makes some paddles from collected parts, stores them, but does not want to use them indiscriminately in case they break or get lost in the rushing stream.

    Basic Fear: ‘Of being incompetent or useless’
    In the canoe metaphor above, this would correspond to the dreaded proverbial situation of “being up the creek without a paddle.” The Five fears the possibility of being utterly broken and destroyed by the world, of not being able to cope, and believes that the hoarded, protected resources can prevent this and provide the capacity to cope.

    Basic Desire: ‘To be capable’
    Or, in the spirit of the canoe metaphor, “to always have a paddle” (and/or other ways of coping with the “up the creek” situation). The Five attempts to achieve the sense of being able to face whatever life brings him or her through the avarice/hoarding fixation of accumulating and conserving resources (”paddles”)."

    http://www.enneagrambook.com/type5/
    http://www.enneagrambook.com/type4/
    "There's no need to be embarrassed about it, Mr. Spock. It happens to the birds and the bees!"

  7. #17
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phthalocyanine View Post
    what about philip k. dick, would be be a good example of a 5w4 writer, or is he a 1, or something else?
    Philip K Dick would be a good example of a drug abusing schizophrenic... but a talented one.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppy View Post
    "Avarice manifests as the accumulation and conservation of resources - often knowledge, information, understanding, time, energy, or a sense of rationality. Taking direct action, putting oneself out there in the world on purpose, is often avoided or done sparingly because it may deplete the resources. (Direct application of knowledge or ideas in a realm that might render them useless or invalid might be an example of this.) Imagine a canoeist who, deeply frightened of being up the creek without a paddle, collects paddles, or perhaps makes some paddles from collected parts, stores them, but does not want to use them indiscriminately in case they break or get lost in the rushing stream.

    Basic Fear: ‘Of being incompetent or useless’
    In the canoe metaphor above, this would correspond to the dreaded proverbial situation of “being up the creek without a paddle.” The Five fears the possibility of being utterly broken and destroyed by the world, of not being able to cope, and believes that the hoarded, protected resources can prevent this and provide the capacity to cope.

    Basic Desire: ‘To be capable’
    Or, in the spirit of the canoe metaphor, “to always have a paddle” (and/or other ways of coping with the “up the creek” situation). The Five attempts to achieve the sense of being able to face whatever life brings him or her through the avarice/hoarding fixation of accumulating and conserving resources (”paddles”)."

    http://www.enneagrambook.com/type5/
    http://www.enneagrambook.com/type4/
    Thanks for the clarification poppy, the links helped a lot too.

    This helps somewhat...
    Type Correlations

    For reference:

    Five With a 4 Wing:
    The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them.

    When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Cliché of the "absentminded professor" applies especially to Fives with this wing.

    Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls.

  9. #19
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    I'm a 5w4 INFP. At face value I seem like an NT, but to those who know me best I couldn't be anything other than an NF. I just happen to have a well-developed thinking function.
    I do often experience duality when I'm in social settings, though. In some realms I'm so focused and single-minded that the intensity at which I concentrate scares people because it appears(I'm told) to be calculating or menacing while in other realms I'm so consumed by my emotions and express myself openly that no one thinks to even question my sincerity. It's strange and unnerving, I'm sure, for other people when watching my "madness" unfold, but I people-please enough so that not all of me is being exposed nor are too many people uncomfortable in my presence.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    I'm a 5w4 INFP. At face value I seem like an NT, but to those who know me best I couldn't be anything other than an NF. I just happen to have a well-developed thinking function.
    I do often experience duality when I'm in social settings, though. In some realms I'm so focused and single-minded that the intensity at which I concentrate scares people (I'm told) while in other realms I'm so consumed by my emotions that no one questions my sincerity. It's strange and unnerving, I'm sure, for other people to watch my "madness" unfold, but I people-please enough so that not all of me is being exposed or not too many people are uncomfortable in my presence.
    I know exactly how that feels. Most people I meet/acquaintances who know Myers Briggs think I am NT as well. It is because we are both NFs with a well developed thinking function. Sometimes it makes you feel like you are crazy...the whole single minded thing (in regards to pursuits like knowledge and creative things) mixed with the emotional sincerity and depth. It is a pretty complex and definitely unusual combination. I wouldn't trade it for anything though.

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