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Thread: ENFJ behaviour

  1. #51
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    You are ENFJ. You just created the circle that has no end nor an answer. Frustration is driven by the inability to understand.

    T types get frustrated because they dont include F. F type assumes frustration is anger, gets angry back. Causes T type confusion. T types notices anger, responds with anger. Anger leads to anger which leads to anger.........someone finally crashes or gives up.

    So why does ENFJ have frustration mapped to anger. Frustration leads to helplessness, anger leads to hate. One is focused internal, one focused external.

    edit: my dad gets mad when he gets frustrated. I see alot of men who get mad when they get frustrated. You can tell when they sit there and work on something, cant figure it out and throw or break it. is this a learned response to tie frustration with anger?

    Does frustration drive helpless which drives not being able to come to a conclusion which drives helplessness which drives anger in J types?
    I think you missed the point. Use your quartenary function (Fe) to back up your primary (Ti); doing so will help you to teach people in a way they can accept your information; no matter how emotionally off-putting your logic might be by itself. That solves the problem.

    I decided to get into it anyway, see below.

    Anger does not need to lead to hate, nor frustration to helplessness; one should learn to control his emotions before his "river" takes those courses. Those who don't, aren't monitoring their negative feelings appropriately and cause more harm than productive good.

    Frustration and anger often follow parallel courses; in my experience with men like your father (and mine) Frustration often does lead to Anger, especially with more immature types. Frustration (internal) should not be--Fe speaking--an emotion to be vented in the form of Anger (external) onto others, but often is.

    T types get frustrated because they dont include F. F type assumes frustration is anger, gets angry back. Causes T type confusion. T types notices anger, responds with anger. Anger leads to anger which leads to anger.........someone finally crashes or gives up.
    Frustration is internalized anger. You almost said it...just not quite. F-types, who feel emotion in such a broad spectrum often miss some of the finer shades--I agree that we sometimes mistake it. Other times it comes out in shades of arrogance and anger that were clearly borne out of that frustration; what you described Poki, was one scenario; that doesn't happen between T and F, everytime. Sometimes, it's very much a T-compressed, negative emotion that starts taking a civil conversation down the wrong path. Other times, it's an F-brained, overreaction.

    Keep in mind, for Fe types, environmental emotion is personal; if we detect it, it may as well have been said. You can't help that. Just keep in mind that when we are the reason you are frustrated, we feel dumb, so we get angry, because neither of us have the communication skills necessary to reach the other. Patience is in order. And like I said, use your quarternary to support your primary. IMHO, this is a start to reaching Fe's without matured Ti in an entertaining, comprehensive, mature manner.
    Love is the point.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzcrossed View Post
    I think you missed the point. Use your quartenary function (Fe) to back up your primary (Ti); doing so will help you to teach people in a way they can accept your information; no matter how emotionally off-putting your logic might be by itself. That solves the problem.

    I decided to get into it anyway, see below.

    Anger does not need to lead to hate, nor frustration to helplessness; one should learn to control his emotions before his "river" takes those courses. Those who don't, aren't monitoring their negative feelings appropriately and cause more harm than productive good.

    Frustration and anger often follow parallel courses; in my experience with men like your father (and mine) Frustration often does lead to Anger, especially with more immature types. Frustration (internal) should not be--Fe speaking--an emotion to be vented in the form of Anger (external) onto others, but often is.



    Frustration is internalized anger. You almost said it...just not quite. F-types, who feel emotion in such a broad spectrum often miss some of the finer shades--I agree that we sometimes mistake it. Other times it comes out in shades of arrogance and anger that were clearly borne out of that frustration; what you described Poki, was one scenario; that doesn't happen between T and F, everytime. Sometimes, it's very much a T-compressed, negative emotion that starts taking a civil conversation down the wrong path. Other times, it's an F-brained, overreaction.

    Keep in mind, for Fe types, environmental emotion is personal; if we detect it, it may as well have been said. You can't help that. Just keep in mind that when we are the reason you are frustrated, we feel dumb, so we get angry, because neither of us have the communication skills necessary to reach the other. Patience is in order. And like I said, use your quarternary to support your primary. IMHO, this is a start to reaching Fe's without matured Ti in an entertaining, comprehensive, mature manner.
    But there are things called Ni and Se that sit inbetween them. That adds color to everything. Ni creates its own color based and Se is like "Show me the color". Ni in an ENFJ is focused externally through Fe. Its not as closely tied to logic, but more of open possibilities. My wife was talking to my sister and she said she got a new job working 3 days a week 12 hour shifts. My wife went through telling me all the new opportunities it opened up for her sister and she went through the entire list she could think of. That is Ni. Now Ni supports Fe. We see how Ni colors Fe in a good way. It then convinces her of how good this is because all the opportunities this opens up. When stressed it colors it in bad ways, this is the storm brewing. All the possible ways that things can be distorted. I hit this state, but for me it drives confusion because its so controlled by Ti.

    I can easily reach F types with Fe and Ti. Its easy, but I cant get past the self protection mechanism that Fe creates just like she cant get past the self protection mechanism that Ti creates.

    We protect ourself in 2 ways. Our first is to use our aux function, our second is to screw up our tertiary function.

  3. #53
    Senior Member SciVo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Yeah, Ti is what it is, and those who are Ti-primaries are stuck with finding ways to mitigate that kneejerk need to sort and correct in the human realm - no doubt, a very tall order, because even *I*, as an Fe-primary, cannot tolerate discrepancies, lies or what I perceive to be waffling or redundancy without gritting my teeth and counting to 10. My ENFP sister is WAY better at letting these things slide - I think because she's able to say "This ultimately has no bearing on the outcome" which may be 100% true, while my brain is shouting "A few degrees discrepancy landed Amelia Earhart in the OCEAN!! GRRR!!! RAWR!!!"
    Heh... pretty sure that's a sign of a healthy xNFP, otherwise even your sis might not be able to do that. And hey, a few degrees' discrepancy landed Ms. Earhart in LEGEND!! So at least you have that going for you.
    INFP ~ Fi/Ne/Ni/Te ~ 9-2-4 sp/so

  4. #54
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    But there are things called Ni and Se that sit inbetween them. That adds color to everything. Ni creates its own color based and Se is like "Show me the color". Ni in an ENFJ is focused externally through Fe. Its not as closely tied to logic, but more of open possibilities. My wife was talking to my sister and she said she got a new job working 3 days a week 12 hour shifts. My wife went through telling me all the new opportunities it opened up for her sister and she went through the entire list she could think of. That is Ni. Now Ni supports Fe. We see how Ni colors Fe in a good way. It then convinces her of how good this is because all the opportunities this opens up. When stressed it colors it in bad ways, this is the storm brewing. All the possible ways that things can be distorted. I hit this state, but for me it drives confusion because its so controlled by Ti.

    I can easily reach F types with Fe and Ti. Its easy, but I cant get past the self protection mechanism that Fe creates just like she cant get past the self protection mechanism that Ti creates.

    We protect ourself in 2 ways. Our first is to use our aux function, our second is to screw up our tertiary function.
    *is enlightened* Thank you poki.
    Love is the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzcrossed View Post
    *is enlightened* Thank you poki.
    With having the functions FeNiSeTi which in order of what supports what is TiNiFeSe which is the same support order of ISTPs. We have TiNi which finds the truth and FeSe which cares what others think about them. I was forced as a child to face the truth. I have learned my whole life to face the truth. You know what, the truth can hurt. This in no way supports Fe. You know what works really good with Fe? "Do unto others as you want them to do unto you" That is the definition of FeSe. So you can see the split. In that order ENFJs learned how to make NiFe work together and I learned how to make SeTi work together. I use Ti as a filter between Se and Ni. I have learned to control my filter and what I see as the truth. You use Fe as a filter between Ni and Se. you control the Fe to decide what parts of Ni you want to let pass. You control how you want others to feel towards you by what you do unto them.

    So what determines the order? Which did you need growing up as a kid more to get through life? Were you forced to face the truth or did you have to "do unto others as you want them to do unto you" because the truth was too painful? I was forced to face the truth. I stole from my mom at a young age and she let me know that I lost her trust. When I was a poor sport she stopped playing games. She made me face my actions. How do I fix it. "I try to do unto others as I want them to do unto me". I live and die by these. These are the 2 values I cannot break, I will not break. I assume ENFJ are the same way.

    edit: The truth in here is an internal truth fed by Se where Ti limits the possibities. Without much Ti the possibilities are more endless and are closer to ideal than reality.

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