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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default Fe lesson: please advise

    I would like to seek Fe mentorship as I am Fe blind

    If you have offended an Fe user, dom or aux by being too direct or confrontational, how do you rectify the situation to have a good working relationship?

    If they are very nice on the surface, in spite of the offense comitted, is this a legitimate feeling of kindess, a social pleasentry or waiting until they have the chance to manipulate you to get revenge?

    How do Fe users view corporate levels of management? Do they feel uncomfortable going to higher levels of leadership as needed?


    If an Fe user is applying very personal Fe interpretations to a system of rules and regulations, is there a good way to explain why this is bad? Will explaining that it causes others anxiety be enough?

  2. #2
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    As an Fe, I think sometimes the kindness they give you is not always genuine. Sometimes, it's actually just to really drive home how angry they are: "See? You offended me so much, and I'm such a nice person that I'm going to treat you with INSANE kindness so that you feel even WORSE about what you've done." If they continue this kindness without actually dealing with the issue, they may try to gloss it over (truly believe they are okay and courteous toward you), but then, something you say or do will remind them of the offense, and they'll lash out (at least from an ENFJ perspective). I think we have a hard time truly forgetting offenses, but we try really hard to think good of the person.

    What it truly takes for me personally is to have a good talk with that person. I admit that at times, what I really just want is a genuine apology with the person admitting they have done me wrong. That's not really fair, but it's my experience.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Keps Mnemnosyne's Avatar
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    "If they are very nice on the surface, in spite of the offense committed, is this a legitimate feeling of kindness, a social pleasantry or waiting until they have the chance to manipulate you to get revenge?"

    My suggestion would be to randomly choose one of the above and go with it, although I may dream about revenge, I typically don't do it, as my belief is in general that everyone is a good person with a dark side.

    Apologies are accepted if believed to be genuine.

    I personally don't deal with management, as I prefer to be by myself taking care of what I need to do and letting others do what they should be doing.

    No offense to you, Ne-Monster, perhaps you have assumed that a subjective Fe judgment is bad. In either case, keep an open mind and talk to them about what part of the rule they disagree with and try to either change their viewpoint or realize that they are right and change the rule. I try to follow the spirit of the law rather than the actual law because often to follow laws by their letter are illogical. For example, speeding is illegal, but to arrest someone who is driving fast due to a pregnant women about to burst open, or someone dying of a heart attack is irrational. Laws were made to protect society and the people within, not to destroy them. People could then state "Well I was driving fast officer, because I'm late for a movie" is the problem with this approach because it seems quite arbitrary in that the officer is still going to give a speeding ticket. Laws are either unnecessarily rigid and cannot deal with novel problems or it can be subjective with people arguing in courts what the spirit of the law is meant.

    Explaining that I am causing anxiety in others will help if the rule that I find annoying is small, but if it is a large problem for me, then no I would fight it. Regardless, I would be annoyed at the people experiencing anxiety over my personal interpretation of the law, so I would not suggest this route.

    As a sidenote, my favorite part of this topic is that the Similar Threads box below has "Fellatio: A Fourteen Lesson Tutorial". I had to laugh. In addition these are personal opinions, not to represent the entirety of a strong Fe users.
    Love wouldn't exist without loneliness to inspire it.

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  4. #4
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think I'd need more details to properly understand what kind of situation you are talking about. However:

    If you have offended an Fe user, dom or aux by being too direct or confrontational, how do you rectify the situation to have a good working relationship?
    Acknowledge what happened and that you understand where you went off the rails with them. Ask directly about how you can communicate in a more palatable form to them. They will be polite to you, but if you lose the heart of people like this, they will not trust your leadership and can end up making trouble for you by talking to others about their frustrations. If you don't seem receptive to hearing about it, they won't push the issue, but you won't get their best work either.

    If they are very nice on the surface, in spite of the offense comitted, is this a legitimate feeling of kindess, a social pleasentry or waiting until they have the chance to manipulate you to get revenge?
    This is them trying to be the bigger person and suck it up, but unless you deal with it, it will never go away and adds a stick of dynamite to a stack that in a moment of frustration could ignite and explode on you. This is especially true if you don't even acknowledge that any wrongdoing has occurred. They're not usually manipulaters, but what they feel is unjust treatment will rankle and they may talk about it to others if they can't to you.

    How do Fe users view corporate levels of management? Do they feel uncomfortable going to higher levels of leadership as needed?
    In what sense do you mean?

    If an Fe user is applying very personal Fe interpretations to a system of rules and regulations, is there a good way to explain why this is bad? Will explaining that it causes others anxiety be enough?
    What are you referring to specifically? If you mean that it's freaking out the SJs that rules for the sake of rules are not being followed and you want to explain that it puts them in a tizzy, then it depends on how much they want to please you or the people who could possibly be offended. Mostly they want to know that the people in leadership have actually thought out why those rules are in place, how they affect others in the organization and that the reason for these rules can be explained satisfactorily. If so, then a simple explanation may be all that's needed. They can put themselves in your shoes. They are not out to make your life miserable, but if something has to give, it will be the things that appear to be unimportant or unfair. They are not likely to accept an explanation like, "Because it's always been done this way", or "That's just how business is", or "This is our policy". They probably will also balk at anything that seems unethical.

  5. #5
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    thanks much guys, these is very good feedback.

    Especially the parts about apologies and such. Fi takes a very different route and as usual i find myself suprised by how different the same gesture on the surface can appear on the inside. You guys teach me a lot!

    As for the rules, somewhat problematically, this person is responsible for managing SOPs, things that the ISTJs live and die by. In addition once these rules are set, much money will be spent following them. We have to do this is our industry is heavily regulated. Part of the frustration is that each situation is getting a slightly different version of the "rules" applied depending on the actual people involved.

    This makes total sense in many scenarios-teaching, manging employees, and so on. Here though it causes massive anxiety.

    My ISTJs are the worst struck. I can see all types of ways to skirt around future issues-ne style. They cannot do this, but they know they also cannot be confident that the rules are the same each time. Like they are on the edge of a cliff, they know it is crumbling, bt they do not know where to step for solid ground. So they freeze. If they cannot find a ruleset to follow that is predictable, they do nothing.

  6. #6
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    What are SOPs? Standard operating procedures? What kind of slightly different versions are you ending up with?

    I think it is reasonable to explain a little bit about how that does create anxiety for certain types of people especially. Are the SJs a majority at work, or just a small group?

  7. #7
    Senior Member Keps Mnemnosyne's Avatar
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    Could you give an example of what you meant by the "slightly different version of the 'rules' applied depending on the actual people involved"? Is the Fe-user doing it because of favoritism, how the Fe-user judges the person capable, or some other reason? If you can find out why and then tell Fe-user privately how that is illogical and causing anxiety, that should help. You may also want to have suggestions on hand on how to standardize the SOP's, although that sounds like that is part of Fe-user's job and not your job. What I meant is that you do not have to take responsibility for someone else, but a helping hand is always nice. Hope this helps.
    Love wouldn't exist without loneliness to inspire it.

    Peach yogurt is made of love. And gnome kidneys. - Domino

    I can cope and will cope without polluting my lungs. - Saslou

  8. #8
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    What are SOPs? Standard operating procedures? What kind of slightly different versions are you ending up with?

    I think it is reasonable to explain a little bit about how that does create anxiety for certain types of people especially. Are the SJs a majority at work, or just a small group?
    yes, standard op procedures. The problem is that they end being written vaugly, and are left open to interpretation-a very non ISTJ way to write them. At first this makes my Ne happy. Even if vague, yet consistantly implementaed it would work okay. But what seems to be happenning is anywhere there is grey space-there is incremental constant change to please others-mostly folks higher on the food chain. So the process never stays the same.

    Likely almost 50% ISTJs, 40% NTs, and 10% other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keps Mnemnosyne View Post
    Could you give an example of what you meant by the "slightly different version of the 'rules' applied depending on the actual people involved"? Is the Fe-user doing it because of favoritism, how the Fe-user judges the person capable, or some other reason? If you can find out why and then tell Fe-user privately how that is illogical and causing anxiety, that should help. You may also want to have suggestions on hand on how to standardize the SOP's, although that sounds like that is part of Fe-user's job and not your job. What I meant is that you do not have to take responsibility for someone else, but a helping hand is always nice. Hope this helps.

    Now this is where things get-a wee bit yucky. I have seen some favoritism applied. I try to avoid going there as I want to assume the person is being professional-but there is an ENTP that really, really was rude to this pair of ISFJs. Now his projects-that I get to implement-get all sorts of extra stuff required of them. Before I was involved his projects went nowhere-"filed away for future consideration". Or they would get sent back to thim for "extra information" that other projects did not require.

    This was why I asked about how to make amends with Fe users you have offended. Although I also have now offended one of the pair by being fairly confrontational over the inconsistancy. I will apologize and will mean it but the entp will not apologize. He was right, so that would be asking a lot.

    Thanks much you guys.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Keps Mnemnosyne's Avatar
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    Just because the ENTP was right does not mean he has the right to be rude. As long as the ENTP's ideas are good and he is not continually being rude, it should work out in the long term. If you can show that his ideas are great for the company and that the pair's derisiveness is crippling the company, that may help. Take a good idea of his and hype it up slightly to the pair. Enough that it is slightly tooting the horn, but not enough to be anywhere near fake.

    Favoritism isn't necessarily illogical as people who are 'nice' now will more likely be 'nice' later and the same thing with rudeness. The problem is that initial impressions aren't always accurate (the ENTP you say was right) nor does it account for people changing behaviors.

    As for your other problem of vague SOPs that change....I have no suggestions except to bond with the ISTJs and lead an uprising to take over the company and then the world. Good luck with that idea though. Asking about this problem to some SFJs may help too.
    Love wouldn't exist without loneliness to inspire it.

    Peach yogurt is made of love. And gnome kidneys. - Domino

    I can cope and will cope without polluting my lungs. - Saslou

  10. #10
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    You want to deal with an emotional distress, so you will need to address the Feelings function. However, like all MBTI type functions, the Feelings function does not operate by itself; it works in conjunction with the person's Intuition/Sensory preference. NFs and SFs respond differently to emotional experiences, so you have to use a different approach to reconcile with each.

    N types remember experiences as impressions of what they were like, and they tend to focus on future possibilities rather than dwell on past disappointments. So an NF will likely forget what happened and move on, although they will get upset if they are reminded of it. I used The Mentalist as a visual example of this in another thread:

    In The Mentalist's backstory, [Simon Baker's character, Patrick] Jane's wife and daughter were murdered in cold blood in their own home.[...]As long as the subject of his family doesn't come up, he's cheery and insightful. But watch what happens when the topic enters his thoughts; his demeanor changes. When his FBI comrades mention his family, he becomes sullen and serious. When he's with brokenhearted friends and loved ones of the victims, you can tell he's fighting the urge to cry. One episode even ends with him actually bursting into tears.

    S types remember experiences as detailed snapshots of how things happened; when they remember an experience, it's like living through it all over again. That makes it harder for an SF to heal from emotional distress; every time they remember the incident, they feel the pain just as deeply as on the day it happened.


    To clear the air with an NF, simply admit your fault and apologize. Once the NF accepts, drop the subject and leave it. Otherwise, the NF will dismiss your apology as insincere.

    To reconcile with an SF, reinforce your apology by treating the SF to something special that they enjoy. The memory of you hurting them will then prelude to a memory of you treating them special, conjuring up feelings of happiness, not pain.


    EDIT: Seems a T ninja'd into the discussion as I was typing. The above should still apply, though. Thinkers do still have Feeling functions, although good luck getting some of them to admit it.

    Yeah. INTJs? Chocolate-covered cherries, the lot of 'em. Get past the hard shell, they're all soft, juicy, and sweet. Telling you to piss off if their way of saying "I like you." Punching you in the nuts means total commitment.

    And possible population reduction, if enough people think I'm being serious.

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