[ENFP] The ENFP Te Demand

[Poki]

I found this on tertiary Te tempatation.

For extraverts, the Tertiary Temptation arises when Orienting by socially defined expectations is failing them. To find their way, they need an independent integrity or awareness, which cannot be developed by understanding oneself solely in terms of how people respond to you. The Tertiary Function provides a way of Orienting in an Extraverted way--a way of Orienting directly opposite to the Introverted discovery that the person's current situation is naturally leading to.


Tertiary Te: "Unfair!! I have to stick to my guns, I will not be bullied or cheated. Any number of authorities agree with me. All my friends agree with me. Everyone can see that my response is directly mandated by the situation: anything else would be irresponsible. These facts absolutely settle the matter, and there is no point in looking at it any further." The Secondary Function would say: "Fair or not, reasonable or not, recognized by anyone or not, what would truly accomplish some good here?"

I see this in ENFPs. Its when they dont understand why people respond or react in the way they do to them. They dont know what they did to warrant the response they get. What they need is to know. I think ENFPs mislead alot of people because of the way they judge using Fi. They are lead by there feelings in the way they dress, they act, they respond. It is all judged by how do I feel, so it may stump them when people respond based on what the ENFP did because they dont always intend to get the reaction they do get. They then need to get to the bottom of it, especially if it did something to violate one of there values.

 

[Kalach]

Kalach, Si, at least to me, allows me to reexperience emotions from the past. And that can be excruciating (to relive all your mistakes and shameful moments as if they are just happening now) but also incredibly blisffull. For instance, when I reread the logs that I have from my SO and me of ten years ago, I remember why I love him so much more clearly. It's like I'm transported 10 years into the past and can relive every blissful emotion he caused in me. It allows you to relive the highlights of your life as if they're unfolding only now

I have wondered sometimes on this as a source of INTJ/ENFP conflict. For you see, where an ISTJ has Si as their primary function and would revel in exploring the details and content of the past memories, the INTJ correlate is Ni, a function built on implications, backed by Te, seeking in effect to escape the past. Sticking too closely to recovering details would drive Ni nuts.

And then there's the INTJ Se, sitting there going woohoo, miniskirts, fast cars! And the ENFP correlate is Ne, and being backed by Fi it's unlikely to appreciate sitting there and exploring the physical when it could be branching off into discovering the human meaning and potential of what's happening.

i and e functions don't like each other too much, it has to be said. Two Ns generally can cope with each other because the intuition is one of their higher functions, meaning it can consciously adapt to the other. But what goes on at the lower levels, semi-conscious Se and Si duking it out for where attention shall be focused, and backed by those self-same higher functions that normally like each other?

 

[Amargith]

I have wondered sometimes on this as a source of INTJ/ENFP conflict. For you see, where an ISTJ has Si as their primary function and would revel in exploring the details and content of the past memories, the INTJ correlate is Ni, a function built on implications, backed by Te, seeking in effect to escape the past. Sticking too closely to recovering details would drive Ni nuts.

And then there's the INTJ Se, sitting there going woohoo, miniskirts, fast cars! And the ENFP correlate is Ne, and being backed by Fi it's unlikely to appreciate sitting there and exploring the physical when it could be branching off into discovering the human meaning and potential of what's happening.

i and e functions don't like each other too much, it has to be said. Two Ns generally can cope with each other because the intuition is one of their higher functions, meaning it can consciously adapt to the other. But what goes on at the lower levels, semi-conscious Se and Si duking it out for where attention shall be focused, and backed by those self-same higher functions that normally like each other?

Must say I haven't experienced it as a problem yet. Though he will roll his eyes at my relishing the past and rereading his old love letters, and reminiscing about our relationship
But he indulges me as he loves the mood it puts me in.
And I'll roll my eyes at his newfound obsession with the gym and fast speedy stuff (seriously, sometimes it's like having an ISTP in the house!), and his childlike desire for everything to be bigger and better, but at the same time, I'm sorta amused at seeing him like that and watching him enjoy life a bit.

Also, don't forget that those inferior functions usually get expressed through the more dominant ones. What I mean is, I tend reminisce on fantasies that I've formed using Ne, or memories I have of Fi in the past , and he tends to do something Se coz his Ni finds it worthwhile exploring or it happens to support his Te.


Edit: though the one thing that does annoy me slightly is that he's taken to enjoying alcohol more than he used to (he used to drink like 3 beers in a year), and he tends to get *very* ESTP when he's a bit tipsy

 

[Kalach]

The INTJ Se Suggestion: Say, would you like to wear high heels with those hotpants? Huh, Would ya?
The ENFP Si Suggestion: Aw, look at these photos, that was when we... hey, can we make a scrapbook, can we?

 

[Amargith]

Pretty much
I tend to get that way especially when our anniversary is around the corner and he sooo rolls his eyes at me for that. And he gets that way every time he passes a lingerie shop (I have the heels, so he wants to buy me the hotpants/string/corset/you get the idea *sigh*)...though I always thought that was typically male and not typically INTJ

 

[Kalach]

This is starting to make sense now. Even young ENFPs I know speak of "beautiful memories". Previously, since they're all so N and seemingly in the moment, I had dismissed this "beautiful memories" talk as a stereotypically sentimental Chinese (for I am in China) way of dismissing stuff that had happened by putting a good spin on crap. Most recently I heard it from a kid who was talking about a guy she knew who wasn't into her and was leaving for study elsewhere. She was going on about how she'd treasure the friendship she had had and she would keep it as a, wait for it, beautiful memory.


Hmmmm....

 

[Amargith]

This is starting to make sense now. Even young ENFPs I know speak of "beautiful memories". Previously, since they're all so N and seemingly in the moment, I had dismissed this "beautiful memories" talk as a stereotypically sentimental Chinese (for I am in China) way of dismissing stuff that had happened by putting a good spin on crap. Most recently I heard it from a kid who was talking about a guy she knew who wasn't into her and was leaving for study elsewhere. She was going on about how she'd treasure the friendship she had had and she would keep it as a, wait for it, beautiful memory.


Hmmmm....

I too treasure memories, yes. I have a memory box even. It contains certain items that had significance at the time, but I no longer use. For example, I still have the blouse I was wearing when I met my first boyfriend, the candy bag my russian family gave me for christmas, the sweater this random hot and sweet guy gave me out of the blew (best slowdancer ever ), and when I came back from russia, I wrote down the story of that year, and illustrated it with pictures. I still have that book too. I keep logs of conversations that are important to me, as they trigger the same emotions they triggered back then, with the additional bittersweet bonus of looking back at it from my current perspective.

So you're telling me that Se is the culprit for my oh so intelligent and mature boyfriend to sometimes go completely male and macho on me? I always am thrown off when he pulls that stunt on me as it is sooo not like him

 

[Kalach]

So you're telling me that Se is the culprit for my oh so intelligent and mature boyfriend to sometimes go completely male and macho on me? I always am thrown off when he pulls that stunt on me as it is sooo not like him

Well, if you mean a sudden fascination with lingerie or lurid clothing, then I'm going to have to go with a yes on that one. The most popular fetish and perhaps the only point on which INTJ males make contact with, uh, popular masculinity. It can't all be channelled into fast cars and exercise.

Se also does things like encourage a J-user to reach out and grasp things to take control of a situation. Like, try getting the mouse away from an INTJ if you're both sitting in front of the computer.

I figure Se also plays some role in the justly famous and clearly sexy if only people would recognise it, INTJ gaze.

 

[Amargith]

I figure Se also plays some role in the justly famous and clearly sexy if only people would recognise it, INTJ gaze.

What, you mean that gaze where they don't just undress your body but also your soul?

Agreed on the mouse btw, or the remote for that matter!

 

[poppy]

I figure Se also plays some role in the justly famous and clearly sexy if only people would recognise it, INTJ gaze.

Seriously.

 

[Kalach]

Thus, re Si and Se, a theoretical pitfall between ENFPs and INTJs (and presumably ENTJs and INFPs too): bad memories.

What does an NTJ know of dealing with bad memories? For that matter, what do STJs do in the presence of bad memories?

 

[Amargith]

Tip: when dealing with NFPs, always make sure you leave a conversation on a good vibe. Otherwise that unpleasant feeling gets stored along with the memory and while the memory itself may fade, the memory of the feeling won't, meaning that next time they think of talking to you, or of you in a similar situation, they won't wanna be near you and they might not even know why = potential avoidance of the unpleasant subject/situation aka you

 

[Kalach]

So on the one hand we've got an ENFP avoiding bad memories, and on the other we've got an INTJ for whom memory doesn't exist unless you dig really hard under a bunch of educated intuitions about the future.

An ISTJ would be all about reconstructing the past in adequate detail and the ENFP would be prompted to spell out more of the memory and it's freight of feeling. What Te's doing at this time is anyone's guess.

And the INTJ?

He's got nothing except sitting there watching the ENFP do her thing.

So... on the lowest end of the conscious scale, INTJs and ENFPs leave each other alone?

 

[lamp]

So on the one hand we've got an ENFP avoiding bad memories




And the INTJ?

He's got nothing except sitting there watching the ENFP do her thing.

So... on the lowest end of the conscious scale, INTJs and ENFPs leave each other alone?

Specifically, it is not memory avoidance but potential avoidance of people or places associated with those memories. However, I am also willing to bring up bad memories with bad-memory-people.

My INTJ friend gets pushy (Se related I guess?) when we are exhausted from a long conversation, or drinking. This often involves him telling me to act immediately on some of my more outlandish (to me) desires.

I think he has an easier time enjoying himself in 'normal' situations too. Last night I was upset, I wanted to sit on my ass, brood, and read (TypeC thread backlog ). He wanted me to come out and see a movie, I made it clear that I did not really want to go, but I ended up going anyways. We conversed for a while after the movie was over, touching on how I never appear happy and NFP happiness; I had been obviously cold prickly Fi all night. So I asked him, why he thought I should come out after I had made it clear that I did not want to come out, he shrugged and told me he though I would have fun. The night was indeed interesting, so I do not regret going out. (this is all very Si, I have typed out briefly what happened last night but in my head I have gone through a lot of events. The typing (Te?) helps me go through the events, especially when alcohol was involved)

My ENTJ friend once told me that she dislikes revisiting in conversation, the events of the night prior. When discussing bad events with her, I sometimes hesitate to bring up relevant details because I fear she will drift into ice queen mode before we can conclude anything. I guess some things are only relevant to me personally and do not need to be shared.

When my INTJ friend tells stories he often tells me alongside the storytelling that the event did not happen that way (but doesnt mention what actually happened ). He is making a point, not telling a story. He often tells me things that are flat-out wrong, or that I misinterpret horribly.

I too treasure memories, yes. I have a memory box even. It contains certain items that had significance at the time, but I no longer use. For example, I still have the blouse I was wearing when I met my first boyfriend, the candy bag my russian family gave me for christmas, the sweater this random hot and sweet guy gave me out of the blew (best slowdancer ever ), and when I came back from russia, I wrote down the story of that year, and illustrated it with pictures. I still have that book too. I keep logs of conversations that are important to me, as they trigger the same emotions they triggered back then, with the additional bittersweet bonus of looking back at it from my current perspective.

I do all this as well.

 

[Wild horses]

I don't really remember or hold on to the past, however, I do build up a network of connections... some of which are feeling based... Bad feelings I avoid. It's not that I remember the past it's just that I don't want the bad feelings to come into my future and avoidance really is my forte I know that it's bad and that I shouldn't do it but I just am able to vanish so well... I;ve like alomst turned into an art form... call me an illusionist!

 

[Goatman455]

Don't forget to check out socionics, where INFJs have Fi and Te as well, and INFPs have Fe and Ti. Introverts are reversed in that respect. J means you have a judgment function first and P means you have a perception function. Whereas in MBTI P and J are determined by the direction of the judgment/perception functions.

 

[lamp]

ENFP: the extrovert who needs to shut up

How interesting. Makes sense though, I tend to be verbally quiet socially. Talking just distracts me from deciding what to do next.

 

[Kalach]

Reverting back to the topic for a moment, the ENFP Te Demand and how it might be different from Tertiary Temptation...

Well, there was suggested ENFPs do their best and be their truest selves when keeping true to Ne/Fi. More exactly, using introverted feeling to filter possibilities. But lo, even more exactly, persisting in the process of coming to have introverted feeling be an authentic filter for possibilities. Choosing right from wrong, supporting seen potential to truth and goodness, dividing among the multiple realities until the one is found.

Ne/Fi will never, ever do that alone.

Potential needs to ring up on the register of instantiability first (Te) and pass the test of feeling reality (Si). And these two aspects of the truth of Ne/Fi are semi-conscious, not truly open to debate, not until later in life. They are wide open to misuse and misinterpretation, and nonetheless, they grow right along with the growth of Ne/Fi. Indeed, they are essential to that growth.


Made that up. How do you like it?


It sort of means the Te Demand is, "When I care about this, it better be made real."


(And I called Si "feeling reality" because that's what you've all been saying it does for you, transports you back to the feeling, providing the check on what is real.)

 

[lamp]

"When I care about this, it better be made real."


(And I called Si "feeling reality" because that's what you've all been saying it does for you, transports you back to the feeling, providing the check on what is real.)

"When I care about this, I need to participate (make it real)" (?)

I do not think potential needs to pass a test of 'feeling reality'.

will try and elaborate later

 

[Wonkavision]

I don't really remember or hold on to the past, however, I do build up a network of connections... some of which are feeling based... Bad feelings I avoid. It's not that I remember the past it's just that I don't want the bad feelings to come into my future and avoidance really is my forte I know that it's bad and that I shouldn't do it but I just am able to vanish so well... I;ve like alomst turned into an art form... call me an illusionist!

Yeah, I relate to this a lot.

I don't keep much of anything. I'm always moving on to new things.

I'm an Enneagram type 7, a rolling stone, a traveling bum.

I love being a husband and father, but my soul always wants to wander.