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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Exactly.

    But that's CREEPY, isn't it?

    What kind of ENFP consciously wants to take over the world?

    Not me.
    I'd actually give it a try .

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    I think healthy ENFP idealism would be driven by Dominant Ne/Auxilliary Fi -- motivating, encouraging, and inspiring people to see the possibilities of human progress.

    It wouldn't be run by Dominant Ne/Tertiary Te -- coercing and manipulating people and systems in order to ensure that humans progress.
    I'd agree that an ENFP would be happiest as a motivator, but at the same time there is that endless pushing the limits and wanting to understand.

    Why would an open thinking Ne type do anything like a dominant Te type? Te is Ne's bitch. It's there to help you see the systems in order, optimise, communicate clearly, etc. Under Ne and Fi it isn't really going to say, everyone change and do this so the world works better, because Ne Fi screams be yourself, do your part as you, find the real you, be fulfilled, and we'll all be happy. We could move to be more Ne Te, but the decisiveness of Ni and Si are still going to feel unattractive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Any ENFP who thinks they are using Te really effectively should ask someone they trust to give their honest opinion.

    The trusted friend will probably say it isn't working as well as the ENFP thinks it is.

    Besides, if you are making good decisions and working well with others, that is your Ne and Fi working well together.

    Why would you credit Te with that????
    If you look at a functions test, I use almost all of the Ne and Fi points as a regular part of life. I use 75% of the Te points as a regular part of life. I use 60% of the Ti points as a regular part of life. Obviously I don't use all of those functions, and those functions aren't my primary group of traits. But when it comes to grouping traits into two letter combos, I use many of the traits in these two letter combos regularly. The fact some guy called Jung decided to group these traits into sections, and noticed some people are more complete in some sections has not much to do with it. I still exhibit these traits quite strongly.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  2. #82
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Please feel free to comment/respond to the criticism of your statements with the like. I look forward to hearing where I may have misunderstood your statements quoted above or missed something you said.

    Could you respond to the criticism of the statements with better evidence/more compelling arguments? I'd like to understand these well founded arguments, as you contend, better.
    No thanks.

    I'm not interested in a formal debate.

    I'm interested in sharing my perspective, and I'm OK with the fact that you disagree.
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  3. #83
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    A propos of no one's post in particular and everyone's:

    Te for manipulating people? Te's crap for that. It views people as objects within a non-personal system, surely. Te more properly moves the environment around the people, taking the people as semi-fixed points. Obviously it isn't as simple as that--like yesterday when I was making timetable arrangements and I asked a guy, "You're sure you don't want to go up from 14 hours to 18?"--however it sort of is as simple as that if there's strong Fi overseeing the program, the people don't get pushed too far.

    Te will try to jolly people along, but the goal is some external impersonal thing: good timetables, effective mechanical processes, impersonal productivity.

    Sez an INTJ.
    I completely agree - a dispassionate goal. Having said that, the taking into account other people's well-being is really more Fe than Fi, in my opinion.

    And he goes on to hypothesize:

    In an ENFP, Te is presumably still about instantiation of personless goals, but perhaps with a far bigger emphasis on the person as the basic point to be respected, around which the personless goals will rotate.
    Example? Personless goals from your example above make sense in terms of efficiency in most cases. Isn't this what I was saying as well? Fi makes the decision about where to invest Te.

    The wrinkle in this system is the Te is tertiary, less conscious, more reactive, tending toward the childishly cranky or delighted. So you get The Champion. The simplicity of beliefs like "the world will be changed to attend to the interests of these particular mishandled and downtrodden persons I found!" sounds like a Tertiary Te Demand.

    But that's archetypes. On the large stage, the simplicity makes The Champion. On the smaller stage, in daily life, at work, meeting people who aren't downtrodden so much... beats me, I don't know enough ENFPs that well.
    I think this is really simplistic. It assumes a tertiary, less-developed function across the board for ENFPs. This is what some of us who clearly identify as ENFPs but also find Te to be a natural function to rely on are finding inconsistent with our experience. Doesn't the above suggest that we are all given this particular order of functions in spite of our vastly different experience and different levels of working on/developing individual functions. I find that difficult to believe. Te for some of us does not feel like a weak/less-developed function. I find, in my case, as in Ne-monster's is actually as well or better developed than Fi.

    An example from my own experience using Ne/Fi/Te successfully where Te is carrying the load. I am a teacher by profession. A quick skim through papers gives me a rather good idea of the quality of paper the student has written. Fi wants to reward students who have worked harder and those who were engaged in the classroom. Fi also thinks being fair is a really important personal value. Te is engaged to ensure that a straightforward rubric is applied equally across all papers for fairness, a goal Fi prioritized Te is needed to apply.

    The version you presented may work for a younger ENFP or one who hasn't worked on Te for a variety of reasons. For those of us who have, this is not reflective of our experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post

    Many enfps I see seem to have this jarred transition. We are not masking or hiding what we mean via Fe in any way, so we just flip from Fi to Te. It can make us seem very sweet, very fluffy, then wham, bitch. The men have an easier time than girls-societal I think. I have found lately I do better if I just wear a Te mask more consistantly. Then there is no expectation of kindness. However I have a VP and several upper level managers in strategic marketing that are ENFPs and do exactly this-it may give them an edge-the unpredictability.

    And Te can be brutal yet fun in a debate. Ti in entps has a cutting witty precision, Te just punches you straight in the nose-blunt style
    I completely relate.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Valuable_Money's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    I always try to be pretty thorough before jumping into a developed thread...but I skimmed about the preceding half...so apologies if I am missing some info already covered.

    Wonka - I think your thesis works pretty well when working on the assumption that tertiary function is working in phychosis. But I feel I have an ENFP friend who uses Te in a pretty healthy way, and I think I am able to use Fi in a pretty healthy way...that is, I use Fi to function as a moral compass for my Ni/Te constructs.

    Just because I come up with a perceived order of the universe that functions efficiently and makes sense to me, if it violates a moral law higher than myself, it must be rejected or modified (that higher law may not make sense to me). Fi also informs me that a person/people who may not do things efficiently or logically may be the "best" person for the job because they are on the "right" side or are "called" to that position of authority.

    I also see instances where my Fi emotional outburst can be counterproductive or crippling (that tertiary awkwardness), but I still find Fi a positive balance to my Ni/Te, in general. Contrary to your thesis, I find it very helpful to work on developing my tertiary Fi--or at least give it a place of honor in my toolbox.
    is their a list somewhere of all the functions and how they work as teritiary functions?
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh? wgah'nagl fhtagn

  5. #85
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    A word on using Te:

    IMHO the only people who use it straight up, right off the bat are EXTJs. For me, when I consciously use Te, it's as a workhorse for Ni. The intuition comes first and then Te builds a case. Of course, it not at all as simple as that because my intuition--to use a shorthand expression--"knows" it is producing stuff that Te will go to work on. In that sense my Ni is unlike INFJ Ni: the focus is different. So I'd say in general it's misleading to speak of using Te as if it works in isolation. In ENFPs I'd be guessing that Ne does whole a lot of the "using Te" work. Exactly what that means, I don't know, for I don't have a good conception of what Ne is for the user.
    Fine. I'll buy the not using Te is isolation but Ne cannot do the work of Te. Ne is great for making connections, drawing webs but does not do this in a logical manner or with structure. That is Te's domain. Ne cannot substitute for Te.

    I just spent a week with an ENTJ friend and saw many similarities in the way we think and work towards efficiency. It is completely about categorizing, compartmentalizing, structuring arguments to best highlight logical links and missing pieces -- Ne does not do this. Ne is not concerned with efficiency or logical links.

    Ne/Fi/Te may be working together but there are certainly circumstances where Fi is toned down and Te is allowed to take over. This is needed in the workplace. Why would this not be possible?

    A word on using off-reservation functions:

    There's a reason they're called shadow functions, and a reason they tend to have pejorative titles like opposing, critical parent, deceiver, devil. It's a model-theoretic reason, but still a reason: the shadow functions do things that our normal preferences can't, so they're deployed when we're not doing what we like best. They're used for stuff we'd rather not do!
    They are called shadow functions but the model in which they are presented as such is a limited one that does not apply perfectly to all individuals. Using it as such has limited generalizability.

    The above presents basic tendencies in the type, these are not hard and fast orders of functions or necessarily indicative of our skill levels in using these within a type. There is going to be a fair bit of variation in the levels of development of each of these functions, on or off reservation. We are, after all, also products of our varied environments.


    That's why I like the idea of saying we don't actually use the shadows that much. For cognitive comfort if we can get away with using our preferred functions to mimic the shadows, or produce an effect that satisfied the situation anyway, then we'd do that before we walked on the dark side of the street.
    This is not reflective of our experience. This also not a compelling argument because you can't just use your preferred functions to mimic any others. They serve different purposes. How would Ne/Fi work to mimic Te. It can't especially not at the level at which those of us using it are contending we do - for high level analysis in the workplace.

    The implication of it being the dark side is contentious as well. For some of us, Te feels like a natural tool that we use and gladly, not one that is used to do things we don't want to. Differing levels of development across functions provide a much better explanation of the variation we see within types in spite of the presented order of preferred functions rather than sticking so closely to the idea of preferred ones being not only well-developed but the less preferred ones according to the list being weak and childlike in appearance.


    I don't know if there's a real distinction to be made between using, say, Fe and using Ne/Fi/Te to mimic Fe, but it seems to make more sense than saying, O hai, I'm a big time Fi person, but I'll toss that aside for the moment and love you up Fe stylee.
    Again, How is Ne/Fi/Te used to mimic Fe? These have completely different utililities. Now Fi (internal structuring of values) and Te (external structure) is used to care for other people's well-being? Why can't one develop an off-reservation function to be used for a value Fi identifies as important. I could identify being treated fairly and treating others fairly as an important personal value using Fe. Having said that, it is Fe that considers others feelings and well-being. Fi cannot mimic that - it can only prioritize it as important. There is a difference. I've contended that Fe is actually harder for those of us who are Fi users but am not convinced that it is a function that can't be developed much like the others.

    A word on the When ENFPs Change Gears:

    Yep, I've seen that, the switch from fluffy Ne/Fi to hardstyle Ne/Te processing. It is disorienting when you're not ready for it, suddenly you're talking to someone a lot smarter than you'd figured.

    Soooo, what's up with that? The Te was there all along but you were letting it simmer in the background?

    There's something to that, the idea that the Te was there all along.

    Sitting there in the background, it was. But...

    What was it really up to?


    The idea that Ne/Fi is fluffy and Ne/Te is smart is very flawed to begin with. One's style of presentation has little to do with the quality of the ideas presented. Te is always there and some of us do make a conscious choice to engage in it areas where it would be appropriate. Our preference, in the personal sphere, is to stick with Ne/Fi and in areas where we know this is inadequate, to bring in Te and let it dominate in what it does best.

  6. #86
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    No thanks.

    I'm not interested in a formal debate.

    I'm interested in sharing my perspective, and I'm OK with the fact that you disagree.
    Suit yourself. Just presenting the perspective without addressing the questions raised is just less useful for our collective learning, in my opinion. That was always the goal.

  7. #87
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    I'm an ENFP, and I refuse to bullshit people.


    Advice for non-ENFPs:


    ENFPs in Ne/Te attack mode are cruel and unsparing in their judgements---which is totally out-of-character--- so the long term effects are bad for everyone concerned--including the ENFP.

    Under stress, or in the heat of an argument, or even in what starts as a "friendly debate", an ENFP can be very tempted to go into "Hyper-Logical Mode."

    This is "Tertiary Temptation."

    This would be ignoring Fi and going full-on Ne/Te.

    They would lose all sense of proportion, ethics, fairness, decency, respect, and human compassion.

    They would focus intensely on the other person's every move, and even anticipate most of them in advance--making the other person feel trapped and completely helpless.

    They would be extremely logical, but would not spare the other person's feelings.

    They would become, essentially, a cruel and heartless machine, programmed to destroy their opponent at all costs.

    They would identify the person's weaknesses with almost inhuman precision, and exploit them ruthlessly, while feeling completely justified.

    They would hurt the other person deeply, and they would most likely regret it later.


    ENFPs often think they have Te under control, but unless they are well into middle age, they are probably mistaken.

    Combined with Ne, and without sufficient development of Fi, their underdeveloped Te is extremely dangerous.

    Maybe you have witnessed this behavior.

    And if you're an ENFP, it would benefit you to be aware of this tendency.



    Moral of the story: Don't fuck with an ENFP.

    Treat them with respect, and you will have the best friend in the world.

    Bullshit them or insult them, and you will probably have Hell to pay.


    And beware of an ENFP who invites you to a "friendly debate."

    They are most likely unaware of their own destructive potential.


    This is the way I SEE IT--and I refuse to debate it.

    Comment all you want, but I will probably not respond.
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  8. #88
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    I'm an ENFP, and I refuse to bullshit people.


    They would lose all sense of proportion, ethics, fairness, decency, respect, and human compassion.
    Personal attacks are truly unbecoming on an ENFP. The moral of the story being that charity starts at home.

  9. #89
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valuable_Money View Post
    is their a list somewhere of all the functions and how they work as teritiary functions?
    Here's one:
    ENFP

    The others are listed on the left of the page.

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    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Essentially, Kalach is right.

    The O.P. was spot on.

    The Te Demand in ENFPs is not really a very positive thing.

    It needs to be kept in check by Fi.


    I guess there are a lot of differing opinions on this, but I think this is an interesting thread.

    Nice one, Kalach.
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