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  1. #71
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    'Simple, practical point, Doc Wonka... I've enjoyed trying to learn to use Te more effectively (real challenge for me.. I don't even seem to be able to access it as auxiliary or tertiary sometimes!) - and to tap dance (Si) - and consider development of my stronger functions over time to include an integration of the others. It took a long time to see/comfortably accept my dominant functions as my special gifts.. but would think it a narrow and boring life to focus on them.. to the exclusion of the others..

  2. #72
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Ergophobe--

    You're right that this is all pure conjecture.

    I never intended for it to sound like a definitive statement.

    But I'm not exactly just pulling it out of my ass, either.

    It's based on my study of some good, existing theories, not something entirely created by me.

    I often cite references, and I try to make it clear that it's all theoretical, but I don't want to put a disclaimer on every post.


    I don't expect you to read all of my posts in this thread, but I think if you read more of them, you would see where I'm coming from.

    You might still disagree with me, but you would probably have a clearer idea of what I'm getting at.
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  3. #73
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    But I'm not exactly just pulling it out of my ass, either.

    It's based on my study of some good, existing theories, not something entirely created by me.

    I often cite references, and I try to make it clear that it's all theoretical, but I don't want to put a disclaimer on every post.


    I don't expect you to read all of my posts in this thread, but I think if you read more of them, you would see where I'm coming from.

    You might still disagree with me, but you would probably have a clearer idea of what I'm getting at.
    Please feel free to comment/respond to the criticism of your statements with the like. I look forward to hearing where I may have misunderstood your statements quoted above or missed something you said.

    Could you respond to the criticism of the statements with better evidence/more compelling arguments? I'd like to understand these well founded arguments, as you contend, better.

  4. #74
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    A propos of no one's post in particular and everyone's:

    Te for manipulating people? Te's crap for that. It views people as objects within a non-personal system, surely. Te more properly moves the environment around the people, taking the people as semi-fixed points. Obviously it isn't as simple as that--like yesterday when I was making timetable arrangements and I asked a guy, "You're sure you don't want to go up from 14 hours to 18?"--however it sort of is as simple as that if there's strong Fi overseeing the program, the people don't get pushed too far.

    Te will try to jolly people along, but the goal is some external impersonal thing: good timetables, effective mechanical processes, impersonal productivity.

    Sez an INTJ.

    And he goes on to hypothesize:

    In an ENFP, Te is presumably still about instantiation of personless goals, but perhaps with a far bigger emphasis on the person as the basic point to be respected, around which the personless goals will rotate.

    The wrinkle in this system is the Te is tertiary, less conscious, more reactive, tending toward the childishly cranky or delighted. So you get The Champion. The simplicity of beliefs like "the world will be changed to attend to the interests of these particular mishandled and downtrodden persons I found!" sounds like a Tertiary Te Demand.

    But that's archetypes. On the large stage, the simplicity makes The Champion. On the smaller stage, in daily life, at work, meeting people who aren't downtrodden so much... beats me, I don't know enough ENFPs that well.

  5. #75
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    A propos of no one's post in particular and everyone's:

    Te for manipulating people? Te's crap for that. It views people as objects within a non-personal system, surely. Te more properly moves the environment around the people, taking the people as semi-fixed points. Obviously it isn't as simple as that--like yesterday when I was making timetable arrangements and I asked a guy, "You're sure you don't want to go up from 14 hours to 18?"--however it sort of is as simple as that if there's strong Fi overseeing the program, the people don't get pushed too far.

    Te will try to jolly people along, but the goal is some external impersonal thing: good timetables, effective mechanical processes, impersonal productivity.
    Good explanation and example - it really is basically organizational skills applied to the external environment. Of course, as you implied, Te is more complex in that it uses logical skills to break down, understand complex structures and ideas and then organizes them in the most efficient way possible. This is the dispassionate approach needed for ENFPs in many areas of our lives.


    Sez an INTJ.

    And he goes on to hypothesize:

    In an ENFP, Te is presumably still about instantiation of personless goals, but perhaps with a far bigger emphasis on the person as the basic point to be respected, around which the personless goals will rotate.

    The wrinkle in this system is the Te is tertiary, less conscious, more reactive, tending toward the childishly cranky or delighted. So you get The Champion. The simplicity of beliefs like "the world will be changed to attend to the interests of these particular mishandled and downtrodden persons I found!" sounds like a Tertiary Te Demand.

    But that's archetypes. On the large stage, the simplicity makes The Champion. On the smaller stage, in daily life, at work, meeting people who aren't downtrodden so much... beats me, I don't know enough ENFPs that well.
    I think this is pretty simplistic. It may be accurate in terms of an immature ENFP where the tertiary function is really underdeveloped. This rings less true for those of us who have been honing these skills personally and professionally for over a decade and our jobs/homes being efficiently run depend precisely on these skills. Sure, Fi prioritizes where Te should be used. When this is done, Te can be effectively used for Fi's purposes. Having said that Fi isn't just used for a social cause, it may very well direct the person towards other goals such as having a well kept home or in achieving the goals of the organization we work for, assuming organizational and personal goals are aligned. Te is used efficiently for all of these.

    I also find, personally, I switch to Te mode completely at work sometimes in understanding an intellectual argument made. In stereotypical Te mode, I'll be the one pointing out that a person missed a logical link in their argument or missed a point they said they were going to cover. These are important skills for my job as I would imagine for many others, so we develop these skills accordingly - both as a function of interest and necessity.

    Where it causes problems and is somewhat less developed in the sense of using complementary functions together is the interpersonal realm. I find I surprise people when I switch from my empathetic Fe/Fi mode to the Te/Ti mode in debate at a personal level. My friends who have not witnessed that before are somewhat surprised. I'll do this more when it's a subject I really care about, in the interest of making the best possible argument and doing so dispassionately (hence Fi must be switched off after the decision to engage has been made). I've been asked (rarely but it does happen) if I'm okay/mad at the person when actually none of this is true at all. Most often, I'm just enjoying the intellectual debate and do this with someone who I gauge can handle it. It's surprising for some though because the warm, fuzzy humorous side gets squashed for the purpose of debate. When I have better developed accompanying Fe skills - I think I will truly be a better debate partner.

  6. #76
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    A word on using Te:

    IMHO the only people who use it straight up, right off the bat are EXTJs. For me, when I consciously use Te, it's as a workhorse for Ni. The intuition comes first and then Te builds a case. Of course, it not at all as simple as that because my intuition--to use a shorthand expression--"knows" it is producing stuff that Te will go to work on. In that sense my Ni is unlike INFJ Ni: the focus is different. So I'd say in general it's misleading to speak of using Te as if it works in isolation. In ENFPs I'd be guessing that Ne does whole a lot of the "using Te" work. Exactly what that means, I don't know, for I don't have a good conception of what Ne is for the user.

    A word on using off-reservation functions:

    There's a reason they're called shadow functions, and a reason they tend to have pejorative titles like opposing, critical parent, deceiver, devil. It's a model-theoretic reason, but still a reason: the shadow functions do things that our normal preferences can't, so they're deployed when we're not doing what we like best. They're used for stuff we'd rather not do!

    That's why I like the idea of saying we don't actually use the shadows that much. For cognitive comfort if we can get away with using our preferred functions to mimic the shadows, or produce an effect that satisfied the situation anyway, then we'd do that before we walked on the dark side of the street.

    I don't know if there's a real distinction to be made between using, say, Fe and using Ne/Fi/Te to mimic Fe, but it seems to make more sense than saying, O hai, I'm a big time Fi person, but I'll toss that aside for the moment and love you up Fe stylee.

    A word on the When ENFPs Change Gears:

    Yep, I've seen that, the switch from fluffy Ne/Fi to hardstyle Ne/Te processing. It is disorienting when you're not ready for it, suddenly you're talking to someone a lot smarter than you'd figured.

    Soooo, what's up with that? The Te was there all along but you were letting it simmer in the background?

    There's something to that, the idea that the Te was there all along.

    Sitting there in the background, it was. But...

    What was it really up to?



  7. #77
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    I also find, personally, I switch to Te mode completely at work sometimes in understanding an intellectual argument made. In stereotypical Te mode, I'll be the one pointing out that a person missed a logical link in their argument or missed a point they said they were going to cover. These are important skills for my job as I would imagine for many others, so we develop these skills accordingly - both as a function of interest and necessity. .
    yes. NeTe working together reminds me of a "lump detector" for lack of a better term. Ne allows me to scan the problem space and look at all the possibilities and how they connect. Then I use Te to look for lumps and logical inconsistancies in that matrix. I can analyze a fairly complex problem from 10,000 feet and identify where the issue-the lump-is. I am much better at this than my NTP collegues. In gard school-biophysics-my INTP advsior said that was the one thing I excelled at-taking a very complex problem and finding the tiny tendril that was inconsistant-troubleshooting. At this point however I may need to call in a Ti user to identify a better solution-it depends on the problem.

    If I may be so arrogant-I am one hell of a troubleshooter. I excel here. Also excel at listening to discussions made between two others-and again using structural shifts-recognizing when one person has misunderstood and the "flow", the metastructure of the conversation has gone off track. This is Te, potentially supporting NeFi observations.

    ENFPs are well known for picking up on tense/language changes in print or verbal/nonverbal communication. I think this is Te again-it sense a change in the "meta structure" of the situation. (This can be for the better or worse-especially if we then Ne into the situation things that are incorrect). For me these "changes" are as obvious as listening to music and recognizing someone is horribly off key. I cant not notice them. They are discordant.

    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Where it causes problems and is somewhat less developed in the sense of using complementary functions together is the interpersonal realm. I find I surprise people when I switch from my empathetic Fe/Fi mode to the Te/Ti mode in debate at a personal level. My friends who have not witnessed that before are somewhat surprised. I'll do this more when it's a subject I really care about, in the interest of making the best possible argument and doing so dispassionately (hence Fi must be switched off after the decision to engage has been made). I've been asked (rarely but it does happen) if I'm okay/mad at the person when actually none of this is true at all. Most often, I'm just enjoying the intellectual debate and do this with someone who I gauge can handle it. It's surprising for some though because the warm, fuzzy humorous side gets squashed for the purpose of debate. When I have better developed accompanying Fe skills - I think I will truly be a better debate partner.
    I totally recognize this-I posted a few thoughts on a thread in entp land last week about this. Many enfps I see seem to have this jarred transition. We are not masking or hiding what we mean via Fe in any way, so we just flip from Fi to Te. It can make us seem very sweet, very fluffy, then wham, bitch. The men have an easier time than girls-societal I think. I have found lately I do better if I just wear a Te mask more consistantly. Then there is no expectation of kindness. However I have a VP and several upper level managers in strategic marketing that are ENFPs and do exactly this-it may give them an edge-the unpredictability.

    And Te can be brutal yet fun in a debate. Ti in entps has a cutting witty precision, Te just punches you straight in the nose-blunt style

    I have been observing how I interact with my ENTPs-It is almost all NeTe with little whisps of Fi that leak out now and then. We dont talk about feelings, emotion, or any of that stuff. We argue a lot and then I insult them and make fun of them. They seem to like it.

    Thanks for the perspective ergo.

  8. #78
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    [ In ENFPs I'd be guessing that Ne does whole a lot of the "using Te" work. Exactly what that means, I don't know, for I don't have a good conception of what Ne is for the user.:
    Like flying over a web like net. You actually often stop "thinking" and let it connect for a few seconds. Stuff bubbles up out of the murk-with no Te or Ti, it can be crazy ass random-see the words in my signature-they just bubble and connect to each other. I dont know why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    A word on the When ENFPs Change Gears:

    Yep, I've seen that, the switch from fluffy Ne/Fi to hardstyle Ne/Te processing. It is disorienting when you're not ready for it, suddenly you're talking to someone a lot smarter than you'd figured.

    Soooo, what's up with that? The Te was there all along but you were letting it simmer in the background?

    There's something to that, the idea that the Te was there all along.

    Sitting there in the background, it was. But...

    What was it really up to?


    For me Te is more present than Fi. You may notice Fi more on the surface but Te always sits underneath. It is kind of harsh, cold, pragmatic, reserved, judging.... I sort of understand when the ENTPs describe Fe as being a bit capricious in how they make short term emo connections-sometimes I use Fi that way-Underneath I am detached but on the surface I can seem warm and affectionate. I think I am bit broken here though

  9. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    A word on the When ENFPs Change Gears:

    Yep, I've seen that, the switch from fluffy Ne/Fi to hardstyle Ne/Te processing. It is disorienting when you're not ready for it, suddenly you're talking to someone a lot smarter than you'd figured.

    Soooo, what's up with that? The Te was there all along but you were letting it simmer in the background?

    There's something to that, the idea that the Te was there all along.

    Sitting there in the background, it was. But...

    What was it really up to?


    We perceive the external world with Ne. We judge it with Te. We judge the internal world with Fi. The result, in a way, ends up being that things come out clearer if I don't stop and think carefully, than if I do. At work, I work in bursts. I get stuck for a while and find it quite tiring, then go through things at a rate that would scare the crap out of any careful thinking type. Then I lose the train of thought and am stuck again.

    I think the big difference from thinking types is I'm less framework based and more perception based. I work with the real world things, and describe things by seeing what is most important in the real world things. Ne Ti works by judging the stuff modelled in your head from external perceptions, Ni Te works by judging the stuff you see externally from complex internal perceptions, Ne Te works by judging the external things from the external perceptions. There isn't an internal pondering or modelling process, there isn't really the terminology or playing around with systems in your head. When I play with an idea, I play perceptually still. I try to see it. When the perception becomes clear, then I can describe it clearly for someone else to see it (ie. what you are really looking at is this, this and this. If you approach it this way, and look at it this way, etc. It stays in the perceptual domain, and I know it as a system of objects, not a group of concepts or definitions.). As time goes on I see improved versions of it (it looks better like this, because that is redundant, why was it there in the first place?, etc.).

    I'm guessing in the same way ENTPs are quite Ne Fe, probably why they are such good lawyers, champions of justice, campaigners for causes. Ne-Monster actually discussed this a while ago. We must use our tertiaries more, because you can see the difference clearly between the introverted and extroverted types. Compare an ISFP with an ESFP. You can't say all the mad genius comes from putting the Fi first. And you can't say the leadership part comes from putting the Se first. With ISFPs, the Se Ni combo is crazily good, and you see this similarity in the ISTP. Actually ISFPs are perceptually scary, especially as they get a bit older. They see the detail, and they know the answer. They're spatially incredible, which is part of them being such good artists. Moving on, the INTJs' Fi clearly divides them from ENTJs, just look at any going into or coming out of a relationship, and the ENTPs' Fe puts them worlds away from INTPs when it comes to social protocol. I notice pretty clearly my annoyance with INFPs at work also, because they don't optimise, but I also see their strength in reading through things and collecting information, which is my weak area.

    There is a downside to working in Ne Te for weeks on end though, and it is that I feel I'm losing myself or am not me. It must require some amount of Fi squashing to stay in it every day at work for weeks. Something at the core doesn't get fulfilled.
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  10. #80
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    ...I also find, personally, I switch to Te mode completely at work sometimes in understanding an intellectual argument made. In stereotypical Te mode, I'll be the one pointing out that a person missed a logical link in their argument or missed a point they said they were going to cover. These are important skills for my job as I would imagine for many others, so we develop these skills accordingly - both as a function of interest and necessity...
    Erg, you are another one of my favorite kind of "ENfP"s. I have great debates/discussions with your kind.

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