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  1. #61
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    my impressions of Te are that it actually does more to check Fi.
    For you, if you're an INFJ, that might be possible. I'm not sure.

    But for an ENFP, whose Fi is Secondary and whose Te is Tertiary, it would not be wise or desirable in any way for Te to check Fi.

    For an ENFP, it would be a disaster if Te were equal or stronger than Fi.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member SciVo's Avatar
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    On further reading and reflection, I think that my Si is my tertiary temptation, even though my Ni is actually my third strongest. My Si is the opposite function of my secondary, in the dominant orientation, and so it's what my Fi turns to for support against my Ne. (My Ne and Ni are a tag team and there's no turning them against each other.) Also, I doubt that my Si's weakness makes much difference (pro or con) when using it as a crutch in a situation that demands E, since the problem is that it's inappropriate.
    INFP ~ Fi/Ne/Ni/Te ~ 9-2-4 sp/so

  3. #63
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    For you, if you're an INFJ, that might be possible. I'm not sure.

    But for an ENFP, whose Fi is Secondary and whose Te is Tertiary, it would not be wise or desirable in any way for Te to check Fi.

    For an ENFP, it would be a disaster if Te were equal or stronger than Fi.
    Hmmm,

    I most surely use Te as much as Fi. When I went through the function tests I did not understand some of the basics of Fi-what were my values, what I would I die for. I was very strong at the advanced aspects0-understanding others emotions without knowing why, fighting for my ideals. I can much more easily understand principals, black and white rules and logic. Fi is there but it is hazy and murky. The Te stuff was more normal progression-I understood the simple stuff really well and the advanced stuff was not so well.

    Fi is like a really deep river that flows underneath. It gives me an overall orientation but i dont tap into it much. However what this means is that when I allow myself to feel emotions-something i have only done in the last six months-I get overwhelmed by them. I am not certain how to "process" them productively and can emo bomb at times.

  4. #64
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    aux compensates for dom. ter compensates for aux. develops more complexity and brings more nuanced understandings that create better balance.

    it will never have the real-estate that Fi has for you, nor provide a functional force as powerful as what Fi does for you. but it helps you from overdoing the Fi, by coming at extraversion from a much much much different direction. and provides you a different context to evaluate worth, consistency, fusing personal and global values, etc.

  5. #65
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    The answer to this is all really simple.

    Each individual must do two things in order to be effective:

    1. Figure out what is important to them INTERNALLY(what their principles, or ethics, or morals, or values are--whichever term applies best. )

    2. Be aware of what's going on around them, EXTERNALLY.



    Each type has a Dominant and Auxilliary function, which work together to accomplish the two aforementioned goals.

    The rest of the functions are fundamentally in competition with the Dominant and Auxilliary, pulling you in the direction of your opposite type, so they must be kept in check.


    If you are successful, the credit goes to your Dominant and Auxilliary working together smoothly, NOT to your weaker functions.


    You don't have to aspire to be more like another type.

    Just maximize your strengths and keep your weaknesses in check.

    Strengthening your weaker functions to the level of your stronger functions amounts to self-sabotage.

    If it's even possible to do that, then you do it at your own risk.
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  6. #66
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SciVo View Post
    On further reading and reflection, I think that my Si is my tertiary temptation, even though my Ni is actually my third strongest. My Si is the opposite function of my secondary, in the dominant orientation, and so it's what my Fi turns to for support against my Ne. (My Ne and Ni are a tag team and there's no turning them against each other.) Also, I doubt that my Si's weakness makes much difference (pro or con) when using it as a crutch in a situation that demands E, since the problem is that it's inappropriate.
    Yeah.

    It's not only the Tertiary which can sabotage the Top functions.

    The other inferior functions can wreak havoc as well.

    It can be temporary, or one can be in the grip of inferior functions for long stretches of time--even for years.


    I have a great book on the subject, called Was That Really Me?, by Naomi L. Quenk.
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  7. #67
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post

    Fi is like a really deep river that flows underneath. It gives me an overall orientation but i dont tap into it much. However what this means is that when I allow myself to feel emotions-something i have only done in the last six months-I get overwhelmed by them. I am not certain how to "process" them productively and can emo bomb at times.
    I'm not sure what your type is.

    Is it ENFP?

    If your type is ENFP, then you just gave a perfect example of why you should develop Fi.

    By not "tapping" into the "Fi river", you are overwhelmed by your emotions.

    Fi is a rational function, and would enable you to process your emotions and use them productively.

    You are "emo bombing" when your Ne and Fi are not working together to keep the other functions in check.


    Of course, if you're not ENFP, then there would be a different set of functions involved, but it would follow the same principle.

    It would be a case of inferior functions gaining too much control, due to an underdeveloped or compromised Auxilliary.

    Regardless of type, people succeed when they balance their Dominant with their Auxilliary, and they get off track when their weaker functions interfere.
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  8. #68
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I dont really buy into the "types" as much as the functions. I think they may have a likely order however I dont think it is as nearly as concrete as you make out. The above is a specific instance, an area I am working on, but honestly, I do okay even though I appear to be a typological misfit.

    I actually learn a lot by watching other enfps. We have a problem as we will have others repeatedly try and present information that conflicts with our thought, yet we will disregard them and then keep repeating ourself in circles.

    My entp friend laughs and says just because I repeat myself, that doesnt make me right.

    I appear to be typeless. haha.

    I wonder if that is as effective as being topless at seducing INTPs. Alas I shall never know.

    off to drink more wine.

  9. #69
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    What kind of ENFP consciously wants to take over the world?

    Not me.
    You are not all ENFPs, I don't remember voting to make you representative. I'd happily take over the world - there's a bunch of people in charge in a few particular countries that I'd really like to get rid off. This will generally lead to better outcomes for everyone.


    I think healthy ENFP idealism would be driven by Dominant Ne/Auxilliary Fi -- motivating, encouraging, and inspiring people to see the possibilities of human progress.
    Sure.

    It wouldn't be run by Dominant Ne/Tertiary Te -- coercing and manipulating people and systems in order to ensure that humans progress.
    I fail to understand how the above is incompatible with good Te and why Ne/Te leads to coercion/manipulation necessarily. The normative statements are yours. Inspiring/coercing are two sides of the same coin. Inspiring implies the use of motivational force and coercion the use of disincentives. Ne/Fi is not necessarily inspiring and Ne/Te is not necessarily coercive. This is pure conjecture on your part. Either can be used to convince people of the importance of your goals.

    Fi is geared towards evaluating what's important for oneself, Te is geared towards the outside world - in organizing thought and structures. This implies Fi and Te are both important functions and should BOTH be developed well for a healthy, functioning ENFP. I'll start with first problematizing why just Ne/Fi with a weak Te wouldn't be a good outcome and then argue about them both being important for different spheres of activity.

    An ENFP with a strong Fi but weak Te:
    Would look incredibly selfish because personal values while deceptively resembling principles, they are not the same. What stops Fi from manipulating people to do their will? Fi reflects an individual's hierarchy of outcomes - this may not reflect what's best for the common good or even for other people immediately surrounding the Fi user. Don't you need well developed Fe here to consider other people's well-being/feelings? Indeed. Well developed Te helps keep selfish Fi in check too. Te helps organize our thought process and decision making in a way where we are able to apply broader principles of what is ethical or unethical not just (values) what we believe to be important based on personal ethics. The latter could go horribly wrong and is not a completely reliable compass. Te is pretty important because even in the realm of the personal, dispassionate thought is important in decision making that affects other people. How do we do this without good Te?


    Any ENFP who thinks they are using Te really effectively should ask someone they trust to give their honest opinion.
    I think it's always a good idea to get the opinions of well trusted friends. However, this is more a projection of your experience than a truism you apply to all ENFPs. YOU may have used Te ineffectively and found that you work better with Fi in charge - that's fine but to extrapolate from that to every other ENFP's experience is strange. At the end of the day, the idea of you trusting other people's opinions over your own sense of what is right and wrong reflects weak Fi, in my opinion.

    The trusted friend will probably say it isn't working as well as the ENFP thinks it is.
    Thanks for the mindreading.

    Besides, if you are making good decisions and working well with others, that is your Ne and Fi working well together.

    Why would you credit Te with that????
    See above. Little evidence to only credit Ne/Fi with good decision making besides your own personal experience. I can understand the reasoning behind developing Fi to keep Ne in check. It's an important function for ENFPs and that makes sense. However, the extension to keeping the other functions weaker is on very shaky ground.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    I guess I am confused as other personality types are driven to positions of power for various reasons.


    So why is an ENFP working to move into a position scary? We have goals we would like to see realized...we need to be someplace where we can effectively accomplish them.
    Thank you. I also get what you are saying - it's not literally about taking over the world, it's about having a function that actually helps in the workplace, particularly when we may be in positions of authority. Being in such a position implies more than ever that we be fair and consistent in our decision making. This implies the use of principles in a largely dispassionate manner. There are always exceptions but the best people in these positions, in my opinion, are empathetic (Fe) but equally to everyone and know how stick with a set of dispassionate rules of behavior (Te) -- shouldn't ENFPS aspire to develop these functions or should we not aspire to positions of authority at all??

    I have asked on several threads about is using our innate talents or what we learn to influence others "evil" or manipulative? I never really get a clear answer. Many other types besides ENFPs do this innately-so why is it wrong for an enfp to do this?
    Monster - I think you and I are referring to the same question. Why is Fi driven influence inspirational whereas Te driven manipulative? Either could be selfish in its goals.

    Ne/Fi are best helped by good Fe in the interpersonal realm and Ne/Fi are best helped by Te in the professional realm. With only Ne/Fi doing the leading, I imagine a person who is convinced of their personal value system without basis in a logical argument or consideration of broader ethical principles. The former will find it easy to excuse all sorts of unethical behavior because of a weak understanding of the consequences of one's actions on other people. The latter, in the workplace, would be apt to make decisions based on an individual value system and a very personalized perception of the world around them, thus leading to unfair and inconsistent decision making in the workplace. Rather disastrous.

    Some healthy ENFPs have better developed Te than Fi. I relate to this and know my choice of profession influenced this. Some have better developed Fi than Te. Fi is being connected with one's own feelings and most useful in organizing one's own goals. I can see how not being well connected with Fi can be harmful just as having weakly developed Te can be harmful. This is one of many factors that makes us a varied group of people within a type. This does not necessarily imply a healthy or unhealthy person.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    I always try to be pretty thorough before jumping into a developed thread...but I skimmed about the preceding half...so apologies if I am missing some info already covered.

    Wonka - I think your thesis works pretty well when working on the assumption that tertiary function is working in phychosis. But I feel I have an ENFP friend who uses Te in a pretty healthy way, and I think I am able to use Fi in a pretty healthy way...that is, I use Fi to function as a moral compass for my Ni/Te constructs.

    Just because I come up with a perceived order of the universe that functions efficiently and makes sense to me, if it violates a moral law higher than myself, it must be rejected or modified (that higher law may not make sense to me). Fi also informs me that a person/people who may not do things efficiently or logically may be the "best" person for the job because they are on the "right" side or are "called" to that position of authority.

    I also see instances where my Fi emotional outburst can be counterproductive or crippling (that tertiary awkwardness), but I still find Fi a positive balance to my Ni/Te, in general. Contrary to your thesis, I find it very helpful to work on developing my tertiary Fi--or at least give it a place of honor in my toolbox.

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