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  1. #41
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    weirdo!
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  2. #42
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    ENFP rage is part of this story somehow too. Seems to me the rage is long repressed bad feeling that didn't have anything in the world change for it.
    I don't know about other ENFPs, but I'm torn between the desire to adapt to the world as it is and the desire to change it for the better.

    My own personal anger issues are directly related to this struggle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Meanwhile, in another part of town, Doctor Wonka is leading a herd of stray ENFPs toward their destiny. This mind has boggled beyond repair at such a congregation of innocents abroad nosing their way into the trap. Oh woe, the harem girls of Riyadh grow daily in number, and surely in beauty. For The Wonk knows his stuff, no doubt about it.
    Ha ha! I'm not sure exactly what this means, but I'm somehow flattered by it.
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  3. #43
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    weirdo!

    okay...i'm done.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    This is a speculation. And it goes a little something like this:

    The tertiary function--relief--we turn to it to find energy for and the recharging of whatever our higher functions are about. (Also we turn to it to let the pressure out of the demands of our higher functions, but that's another story.) And being relatively underdeveloped and less conscious than the higher functions, the relief function produces simple-minded demands about how things ought to be.

    Take INTJs for instance. I know that having Fi under Te tends us toward simple-minded demands that other people have their moral compass on straight. "You will treat me with respect and you will know what respect is!"--that kind of thing. Vocalising about moral requirements. "You're going the wrong way! You're making the wrong choice! What do you really want!" And so on. It's odd, but it's true. "Everything will go better if the feeling is right, or I'm outta here!" If you look around the forum, you can see INTJs doing it all over the place.

    So I have come to wonder, what does having Te under Fi do in ENFPs? Well, it's Te, so it'll be something about how the world will be organised; and it's in service of Ne/Fi, so...

    The ENFP Te demand: "the world will be organised in such a way that people can interact and be at risk because I need them to take risks."

    ("And I'll be really sorry if you get hurt, but it's not my fault if you do get hurt because that's just the way the world is, you have to be responsible for yourself.")


    Like I say, the demands imposed by the relief function are relatively simple-minded, and looked at in isolation, they sound awful, but the higher functions are there to take up the slack and balance out the awfulness. Like for example, ENFPs having Ne/Fi will be able to say, yeah, people are at risk, but I'm sympathetic and empathetic and I can be trusted not to hurt you. INTJs back up their Fi demand by saying, I will stand fast to my moral criterion and meanwhile I'll be organising the shit out of everything else so if you know what you want, you don't have to worry about me not knowing about everything else.


    This is a first draft, it's a nice draft, but I don't know if it's a true draft. A lot of the claims might be wrong in expression and might need some whittlin'. What say you?
    Easy. Te under Ne/Fi? The world will be organized on a global scale to live in fairness, mercy, sharing, caring, etc. And don't forget organizing Montessori schools so that more "creative minded" people have an equal opportunity for an education that suits their gifts.

    Te under Ne/Fi sounds like the implementation of lovingly authoritarian global-scale liberal-type government to me. Is it just me?

  5. #45
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post

    Easy. Te under Ne/Fi? The world will be organized on a global scale to live in fairness, mercy, sharing, caring, etc.
    That sounds creepy.

    Too oppressive and invasive.

    My Fi would never support it.


    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post

    And don't forget organizing Montessori schools so that more "creative minded" people have an equal opportunity for an education that suits their gifts.
    That sounds like an awesome use of Te under Ne/Fi.

    My Fi would support that.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post

    Te under Ne/Fi sounds like the implementation of lovingly authoritarian global-scale liberal-type government to me. Is it just me?
    Again, very creepy. My Fi would not support it.

    I know you're mostly joking though, and you're not necessarily saying it's a good idea.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    That sounds creepy.




    That sounds like an awesome use of Te under Ne/Fi.

    My Fi would support that.



    Again, very creepy. My Fi would not support it.

    Yeah, it's supposed to sound creepy. I kind of think of Te as a creepy function (hence authoritarian), and applying it to Ne (hence global and liberal) and Fi (hence sharing, caring, fairness, mercy, lovingly), that's what I personally come up with.

  7. #47
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yeah, it's supposed to sound creepy. I kind of think of Te as a creepy function (hence authoritarian), and applying it to Ne (hence global and liberal) and Fi (hence sharing, caring, fairness, mercy, lovingly), that's what I personally come up with.
    Yeah, I think it's healthy for ENFPs to be wary of Te.

    It's an ugly extra appendage.

    And it really isn't consistent with our overall approach to life.

    The best we can do is accept that it's part of us and make sure to keep it in check.
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  8. #48
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Like Fi in an INTJ?

    Yes, I say, yes! Excise these useless temptations to remorse! The Mastermind will be unleashed truly only when the pesky conscience is stilled!

  9. #49
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Wonka, awesome explanations, I like.

    Kalach, do give us a comparison to INTJs Fi in third position. It would be fascinating to put your Te next to ours and likewise for Fi



    I was also wondering... I've noticed that you're right, Wonka, on the whole motivation thing. In order to be motivated, either Ne or Fi has to be involved, and the things that are addictive to me ask for both functions (such as this forum *sigh*). I can also very much enjoy Te, especially when paired with Fi (with Ne I tire quickly). However, I've also found that the same is true for, for instance Se. If I pair the remaining functions with Fi, I find them usable, much like Te. So for me it doesn't really show that Te is my third function in that. For example, I've recently started dancing again, because the vids I bought were Fi inspired. However dancing itself, is Se, right? And my Se is my worst function, both according to theory and according to tests.
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  10. #50
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Wonka, awesome explanations, I like.

    Kalach, do give us a comparison to INTJs Fi in third position. It would be fascinating to put your Te next to ours and likewise for Fi
    I guess that as a stronger function, both Fi and Te will have the elegance, freedom and flexibility that comes with any mastery. While less virtuosity will feel or appear more tense, one-dimensional and naive. Hence Kalach's idea about the tertiary often being expressed by a demand: demanding a crutch of sorts, a law or a guarantee that will (seemingly) make it less risky to use?

    I mean, my Te may demand elementary logic consistency of concepts (or else big Fi will despise them with a passion), while Kalach is specialised in the subtleties of paralogic consistency! His Fi may demand set moral rules to be spelled out and obeyed (or else big Te will tell them who's the boss), while I am specialised in immanent ethics as experimenting with optimal good use of mutual powers to affect and be affected.
    Something like that: the demanding mode of the tertiary is an attempt to soothe ourselves before daring to let the child out to play and practice its still somewhat limited skills?

    Could an added value be, that the relative simplicity of tertiary use will force the more eloquent user to come back to basics, so to speak. I don't know if the proverb exists in other languages, but in Danish we say that "From children and drunken people will you hear the truth!" Tertiary child naivet has an ability to cut through the arrogance of mastery perhaps? I know that in the company of INTJs I feel compelled to cut any crap and be my self, sometimes more so than I might normally have wanted to. But it could be the x-ray quality of introverted intuition doing that. INTJs - do ENFPs do something similar to you? Can the encounter with simplistic Te be like, I don't know... refreshing or something? Or just annoying? :rolli:

    I was also wondering... I've noticed that you're right, Wonka, on the whole motivation thing. In order to be motivated, either Ne or Fi has to be involved, and the things that are addictive to me ask for both functions (such as this forum *sigh*). I can also very much enjoy Te, especially when paired with Fi (with Ne I tire quickly). However, I've also found that the same is true for, for instance Se. If I pair the remaining functions with Fi, I find them usable, much like Te. So for me it doesn't really show that Te is my third function in that. For example, I've recently started dancing again, because the vids I bought were Fi inspired. However dancing itself, is Se, right? And my Se is my worst function, both according to theory and according to tests.
    I guess I'm all for functional harmony, meaning that I like to think that the four main functions can be happily integrated in our personalities. Not with the same frequency and authority of course, but not entangled in internal psychological obstruction either. What - who said stereotypical ENFP idealism?
    So I'm quite eager to up my skills at Te. And I agree, Fi needs to be developed and in charge for it to really be fruitful. As it happens, I work with philosophy and debate where Te is an asset. And it's also true that I end up unsatisfied and exhausted if I forget the overall Ne-Fi intentions while going into now-I'll-tell-you-what's-real-so-stop-your-nonsense killermode. But at the service of noble Ne-Fi goals I enjoy its toughness and clarity.

    The last year or so I'm even beginning to see something enjoyable in inferior Si when I took up tapdancing! Introverted sensing, percieving and repeating detailed movements, obeying orders with absolutely no room for distracting Ne-associations. Being the antithesis to Ne, using Si appears to be the only thing that can shut the Ne-bitch up. Just for an hour, and I'd go nuts if I had to live under a constant Si-regime, but in that hour my head is forced out of the clouds and oh! it's a bliss!

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