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  1. #121
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    *smiles*
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  2. #122
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^you and I would make a dangerous pair I think

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    I don't find personal attacks very helpful, but amidst the personal attacks are usually good points that I can use to fill in the holes with.

    That has certainly been the case in this thread.
    You make me want to review the whole thread and see where you have been potentially attacked. Whoever's guilty, watch out! But seriously, I didn't get that feeling upon initial reading, just some interesting back-and-forth. But I am going to look back at this later today.

  3. #123
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Kalach..feel free to kick me for derailing your thread, but I would like to ask about inferior Si at this point, and how it fits in, how it's experienced in contrast to Te etc.
    This one I have no real understanding of. I frequently look at myself and wonder how I can skate along as I do with my minimal conception of "the past". It's like it doesn't exist. But "the past" is what I assume Si is about.

    Some time back I formed the idea that Si particularly is used for story telling. Recounting, collecting detail, replaying events for comparison, that kind of thing. If it's lower in the function order then it's for whatever story the higher functions want to tell.

    And why tell stories? To extract meaning. Maybe Si is foundational reality upon which the higher functions work to... to... something.

    Dunno. I'm just making stuff up here.



    I shall now wander over to the relevant INFP thread and see what's up.

  4. #124
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Kalach, Si, at least to me, allows me to reexperience emotions from the past. And that can be excruciating (to relive all your mistakes and shameful moments as if they are just happening now) but also incredibly blisffull. For instance, when I reread the logs that I have from my SO and me of ten years ago, I remember why I love him so much more clearly. It's like I'm transported 10 years into the past and can relive every blissful emotion he caused in me. It allows you to relive the highlights of your life as if they're unfolding only now

    Peacebaby: we're NFP..we're inherently harmless..remember?
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    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Kalach, Si, at least to me, allows me to reexperience emotions from the past. And that can be excruciating (to relive all your mistakes and shameful moments as if they are just happening now) but also incredibly blisffull. For instance, when I reread the logs that I have from my SO and me of ten years ago, I remember why I love him so much more clearly. It's like I'm transported 10 years into the past and can relive every blissful emotion he caused in me. It allows you to relive the highlights of your life as if they're unfolding only now
    I see how this relates Si with Fi. Have you ever used Ne to control that, basically end future memories by somehow controlling your ideas pointing them in different directions to keep your feelings from appearing when you get into Si? Since Ne is external perception like Se I can control what I see to limit what gets fed into Ti.

  6. #126
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Elaborate..I wanna make sure I'm getting what you're saying.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I see how this relates Si with Fi. Have you ever used Ne to control that, basically end future memories by somehow controlling your ideas pointing them in different directions to keep your feelings from appearing when you get into Si? Since Ne is external perception like Se I can control what I see to limit what gets fed into Ti.
    From what I've read, and what I do, ENFPs are meant to take everything on board, and then filter. When it comes to memories, I normally only remember the important stuff though. Things I think are unimportant fly in, then straight out again. If you ask me straight after, I will have noticed them. I just took no action from them. If it's things that are too difficult emotionally, I normally have to face them and deal with them. Things like that find their place, I don't really forget.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  8. #128
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ why should you want to use that approach here?
    I'm not sure I will ever use that approach, but I consider it an available option.


    Right now, I have enough challenges in my life.

    I have to support my wife and two kids, with a job unsuited to my talents.

    Marriage and kids are a lot of work, and force me to use inferior functions.

    I'm not saying it isn't worth it, but my Ne is really deprived.

    My job forces me to use inferior functions all day, so when I'm enjoying some free time, I just want to explore ideas--not to be organized or to speak eloquently.


    I need time to relax.

    I don't need to debate people online.



    It's a matter of setting priorities---of developing Fi.


    I'm more interested in learning than in stating my own opinions.

    In the future, I might just lurk around reading interesting posts.



    Thanks for trying to understand.
    __________________


    I'M OUTTA HERE.

    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

    PEACE OUT!!!


  9. #129
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    At Amargith's request, for her undying love (no homo):

    Inferior Si: Aspire to introverted Sensing (ENFP/ENTP)
    At times they may neglect the details of recordkeeping and thorough preparation, even though they want to be well prepared with all the data they need. Over time, they acquire the patience for careful data gathering and see value in following the work, ideas, and examples of others who have come before.

    While they may not want to participate in traditions or other customary activities for the sameness of them, they often have a sense of nostalgia for how things were before, often with romantic notions. Similarly, they often desire some future life that is set, with conventional trappings, yet are drawn to novelty.

    They can have a rich memory for detail--not noticing the details in the moment but being able to recall them later with specificity that surprises others. They enjoy sifting through and reliving various good memories. At the same time they will avoid situations that might spoil a good memory with a bad revisit of the experience because of the powerful influence bad memories seem to exert on them in the present. Their recollections can seem incredibly real and convincing, even when highly inaccurate or fanciful.

    They can become overly engaged in this process and get caught up in stockpiling goods and information so they are always prepared and avoid shortages. Similarly, they can over-prepare and get lost in the details. If they don't recognize the value of this process, then they will likely disavow careful data collection. Their inability to settle can become a plague to themselves and others.
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

  10. #130
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephMC939 View Post
    Ah, gotcha... that makes a lot of sense now. Yeah, I've seen both my sister and my friend start getting flustered when I ask them questions that requires a little more organization in their thoughts. My friend handles it a lot better, and knows I'm just curious. My sister may act like she's being attacked. She KNOWS I ask a lot of questions, but can't really control not getting worked up all that well. That's where that "They confuse objectivity with being blunt or one-up emotionally with others" quote comes in... she sometimes thinks she's being objective when she says something really blunt or sometimes hurtful.
    Just a thought -- younger ENFPs may be led much more by their Ne and have less control over it with Fi, Te. As a result, we are pretty much following intuitive impulses. When decisions/thoughts are questioned, because Ne led us there, we are truly at a loss as to why. It's very much like knowing the answer but honestly not knowing how you got there. When faced with this lack of understanding ourselves, we can be very flustered. The flustered part sounds very familiar especially when looking back at how I would have reacted to similar questioning, especially from a sibling, ten years ago At least for me, it was more about not knowing how I got there and being frustrated with having to backtrack and come up with justification for the thought/decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    You can also a longer lasting response if you insult an idealistic cause that Fi believes in. However typically society calls this "passion" rather than rage. I will passionately defend a cause and I will come across verbally as very engaged and it can have an emotional component-I care very much about that cause.
    Wow. This rings true for me as well. I remember years ago, being interviewed for a scholarship. I had just gone off on a passionate rant about how people in a certain area of the country didn't have proper representation which explained the conflict in the area and being told....you sound more like an activist. I kept thinking to myself, what's wrong with that? Caring about a subject does not preclude using objectivity in my work. It's Fi that led me to find out more about it...wish I could have explained that better way back then.

    Wonka today I tried to cut off Fi and just be an NeTe machine of domination. It doesnt work if I have no Fi attachment. With no Fi motivation-if I do not care-then I cant take over the world and dominate it.
    Yes, I think Kalach made me really think hard about this -- I agree. Fi makes the decision of where to invest befor Te does its work. If Fi isn't interested, Te will be tuning out pretty fast. I really like the image of little evil NeTe monsters taking over the world. I suggest building an army of them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Stereotypically for ENFPs it's Fi that hones the intuition, pointing it at a subject matter. And this is further, indeed in tandem, honed by Te structures. (And Si.) Thus while someone with tertiary Te could probably focus hard and be the Te, it seems sort of reasonable to say that the dominant process, already by a lifetime of coexistence shaped into a significant partner to the Te, is in there tossing up things the Te can use.

    The frequently posited "Ooo, a butterfly" effect supposedly characterising Ne doms probably gets used to good effect in Te situations. Like, focused argument isn't so much interrupted by butterflies as it is by suddenly discovered important connections, and boom, Ne is doing Te work.
    Yes, very well said. You helped me hone in on this for myself. Internally, I was only seeing the Te which was dominating in discussion/thought/work . But you're absolutely right, this happens, as Ne Monster says, only after Fi has made the important initial decisions to engage or not and the level of engagement. I concur both with Fi leading and Te/Si helping to organize as well as to focus. This rings true. I hadn't considered the Si part quite as much but now, looking back I realize that I've worked on this so much. I remain, primarily a big picture person but when Fi has made a decision to invest in a person/process/idea, I work so hard to remember the little details and have gotten much better over the years at doing so. For example, I'm really good at remembering the names of family members or friends in the larger circle of people I care about (friends/SOs). I may have never met them but I'll remember small details about them that were shared. This also works for intellectual areas that I feel passionately about - the details stay, dates, names... Is this Si in action?


    Such an ENFP answer. What, you mean people are worthy of respect ahead of theoretical models that describe people?! You mean possibility is more relevant to understanding than certainty?! Asserting that these things are true and governing principles of what the world really is, why, that's an ENFP Te Demand.
    You caught me there. Well done! You're absolutely right - the above is Fi all the way.

    It wouldn't. But Ne/Fi/Te might could maybe possibly mimic Fe. Or, it could provide some alternative that approximates what another person's Fe required of you at that time. Maybe.

    How? I dunno. It's just an intuition based on my sense that using non-preferred functions is unpleasant to the point of the user feeling destabilised and untrue. (More below.)
    I think you're really on to something here. I think Ne/Fi can absolutely be used to mimic Fe. I think we've talked about this in other threads some - especially those concerning sympathy/empathy. For Fi users, we may come across as using Fe (expressing sympathy and taking others feelings into account) but the way we do this most successfully is to engage empathy, to put ourselves in the shoes of the other person and let Fi feel what they may be feeling. Ne really helps with identifying all the possible feeling outcomes. As we express this empathy to the person and get more information, Te helps hone in on the option that is closest to what they are experiencing and Fi provides the balm. This is why people around us do feel understood - it doesn't happen with everyone but we're working real hard to identify what the person is experiencing.

    This is not Fe though. You are right and true Fe users will not be fooled. For example, my ENFJ friends (several, I surround myself with I/ENJs) are so good at working a crowd, making large groups of people feel comfortable. They are also quick to provide sympathy to an expressed woe. For me, I work much better with smaller groups so that I can work through the above process better at an individual level. In terms of sympathy - anything I offer, in my view, that is done without the above process, feels shallow compared to what I know I can do for the person.

    I grew up in an Fe heavy environment where all decisions were communal and there were many, many social events that involved large groups of family/friends where my role models (parents/grandparents) were playing the roles of host/facilitator/mediator...I learned how to do that and can but you're right, it's pretty exhausting. Fe is a shadow function. I'd much rather work at an individual level with Ne/Fi/Te.

    Thank you for helping me see this with such clarity!


    A pleasant and model-theoretically religious rebuttal lies in observing that even the less preferred functions have friends: the dominant and auxiliary functions help them to work.
    Fair enough.


    Yeah, and then Ne's keeping a watchful eye on what's going on right now, seeing what'll happen and what it means, and Te's tossing some things in about how to organise the nearby world with that information and those values in mind. I daresay an Fe user interacting with the ENFP wouldn't be consistently fooled, but they might be satisfied for a while.
    Yep. My ENFJs have noticed the shyness/reluctance to engage in Fe. What seemed like Fe to them in our individual interactions is clearly identified as Ne/Fi/Te when put in a large group and they observe over time.


    Rock on! It's Doc Wonk on the ENFP Crimes Committed Under the Influence of Te Commission, not me. Well, not yet anyway, but I might be because...
    I'm going to call it the ENFPCCUTe except it's really not that endearing



    Man, all that was so point-by-point you'd think I were using Ti.
    As mentioned in the rep, based on the above and because you have been so helpful in the navel gazing exercise, I'd like to return the favor... it's Te all the way....

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