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  1. #91
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    The most annoying thing about ENFPs is that we can be way fucking presumptious.

    Especially ENFPs who dont realize they are using Te.

    It sneaks into thier words, thier thoughts and gives them a certainty, an assurance that the perspective they have is utterly correct. They have no idea how concrete and certain they sound.

    So when everyone else can see through the argument and recognize the lack of logic, the lack of clarity, and the lack of incorporation of new data into the model under discussion, it just comes across as annoying.

    As my ENTP says-Just because an ENFP says the same thing 20 times in a row, that doesnt mean it is correct.

    Wonka I can see your Te showing.

  2. #92
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    Tertiary Te (ExFP): "Unfair!! I have to stick to my guns, I will not be bullied or cheated. Any number of authorities agree with me. All my friends agree with me. Everyone can see that my response is directly mandated by the situation: anything else would be irresponsible. These facts absolutely settle the matter, and there is no point in looking at it any further."

    The Secondary Function (Fi) would say: "Fair or not, reasonable or not, recognized by anyone or not, what would truly accomplish some good here?"
    Wow, that sounds exactly like how things go in my head> first the Te kicks in, furious and righteous as above, but then when I calm down, or Te it all out of my system my Fi kicks in, and forgives and tried to find a balance, even though it's only managable by squishing the first reaction, even though the first reaction is the one that should be sustained because sometimes Fi is too wimpy and lets the world walk all over you.

    Truthfully as I have aged more I am able to sutain the first reaction for longer, and I am more able to squish the Fi that wants to change that reaction to something more accomodating, I feel the pull and tug between the two functions and still can not see how to make them work well together.
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

    DeWitt - "Something far worse, she's an Idealist"

    Berb's Johari Berb's Nohari

  3. #93
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    For me Te helps to organize my random and wild Ne thoughts.
    It helps me to organize thing in my head mainly, I'm not so willing to organize actual things in real life....

    Te helps with when writing too. It helps me to categorize and form groups, it helps me to multitask and to manage different things at the same time because I have different "boxes" of different things related to each other in my memory. So, I classify my memory with Te.

    When speaking, my Ne rules and Te is pretty weak and thus not helping me to talk very shortly and clearlly. Only when I'm really concentrating, I can use Te in my spoken communication and of course i can use it when I have prepared a speach or when I'm prepared of anything. usually I am not prepared....

  4. #94
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Fine. I'll buy the not using Te is isolation but Ne cannot do the work of Te. Ne is great for making connections, drawing webs but does not do this in a logical manner or with structure. That is Te's domain. Ne cannot substitute for Te.
    Nor can Ni, but intuition of any kind can only be a gigantic splatter of undifferentiated totality if it were to exist in isolation. Something other than intuition must be involved if intuition is to do anything at all other than "Gaaaahh Blergh!"

    Stereotypically for ENFPs it's Fi that hones the intuition, pointing it at a subject matter. And this is further, indeed in tandem, honed by Te structures. (And Si.) Thus while someone with tertiary Te could probably focus hard and be the Te, it seems sort of reasonable to say that the dominant process, already by a lifetime of coexistence shaped into a significant partner to the Te, is in there tossing up things the Te can use.

    The frequently posited "Ooo, a butterfly" effect supposedly characterising Ne doms probably gets used to good effect in Te situations. Like, focused argument isn't so much interrupted by butterflies as it is by suddenly discovered important connections, and boom, Ne is doing Te work.

    Ne/Fi/Te may be working together but there are certainly circumstances where Fi is toned down and Te is allowed to take over. This is needed in the workplace. Why would this not be possible?
    Totally possible. Probably guaranteed.

    They are called shadow functions but the model in which they are presented as such is a limited one that does not apply perfectly to all individuals. Using it as such has limited generalizability.
    Such an ENFP answer. What, you mean people are worthy of respect ahead of theoretical models that describe people?! You mean possibility is more relevant to understanding than certainty?! Asserting that these things are true and governing principles of what the world really is, why, that's an ENFP Te Demand.

    (As compelled by Fi, so it is the benign Te Demand. There may be others.)

    This is not reflective of our experience. This also not a compelling argument because you can't just use your preferred functions to mimic any others. They serve different purposes. How would Ne/Fi work to mimic Te.
    It wouldn't. But Ne/Fi/Te might could maybe possibly mimic Fe. Or, it could provide some alternative that approximates what another person's Fe required of you at that time. Maybe.

    How? I dunno. It's just an intuition based on my sense that using non-preferred functions is unpleasant to the point of the user feeling destabilised and untrue. (More below.)


    The implication of it being the dark side is contentious as well. For some of us, Te feels like a natural tool that we use and gladly, not one that is used to do things we don't want to.
    The idea of dark side is that the lower functions are more reactive than proactive. They, at various stages of development, hold more sway over the user than the user holds over them. Which is hardly to say that the user can't become more competent.

    Differing levels of development across functions provide a much better explanation of the variation we see within types in spite of the presented order of preferred functions rather than sticking so closely to the idea of preferred ones being not only well-developed but the less preferred ones according to the list being weak and childlike in appearance.
    A pleasant and model-theoretically religious rebuttal lies in observing that even the less preferred functions have friends: the dominant and auxiliary functions help them to work.

    Again, How is Ne/Fi/Te used to mimic Fe? These have completely different utililities. Now Fi (internal structuring of values) and Te (external structure) is used to care for other people's well-being? Why can't one develop an off-reservation function to be used for a value Fi identifies as important. I could identify being treated fairly and treating others fairly as an important personal value using Fe. Having said that, it is Fe that considers others feelings and well-being. Fi cannot mimic that - it can only prioritize it as important.
    Yeah, and then Ne's keeping a watchful eye on what's going on right now, seeing what'll happen and what it means, and Te's tossing some things in about how to organise the nearby world with that information and those values in mind. I daresay an Fe user interacting with the ENFP wouldn't be consistently fooled, but they might be satisfied for a while.

    The idea that Ne/Fi is fluffy and Ne/Te is smart is very flawed to begin with. One's style of presentation has little to do with the quality of the ideas presented. Te is always there and some of us do make a conscious choice to engage in it areas where it would be appropriate. Our preference, in the personal sphere, is to stick with Ne/Fi and in areas where we know this is inadequate, to bring in Te and let it dominate in what it does best.
    Rock on! It's Doc Wonk on the ENFP Crimes Committed Under the Influence of Te Commission, not me. Well, not yet anyway, but I might be because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    The O.P. was spot on.

    The Te Demand in ENFPs is not really a very positive thing.

    It needs to be kept in check by Fi.
    The original idea was that aside from tertiary demands being double-edged swords, and aside from people actually, and as normal, getting good at tertiary functioning, there is a subpart of the tertiary temptation idea, something about how tertiary functions create focus. Just like auxiliaries create focus, the tertiaries shape and dictate too, but perhaps less consciously. This is different from people consciously and actively seeking to use their tertiary function. It's more about background expectations built in to how individuals function.



    Man, all that was so point-by-point you'd think I were using Ti.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    As my ENTP says-Just because an ENFP says the same thing 20 times in a row, that doesnt mean it is correct.

    Wonka I can see your Te showing.
    In the heat of an argument I have said the exact same thing to my grandparents about rules and interpretation. They were instistant on being right and I knew that they were "reading into the rules of a game" so the argument path I took was to show the other side of how it read which is verbatim word for word.

    My grandmas argument was that it makes it to easy, my response was that no matter how easy or hard it makes the game doesnt mean you are correct. This is not my normal way of responding, but they became insistant and I was backing up my mom and my wife. They both did something that my grandparents deemed against the rules and my wife called me in for backup.

    My grandfather kept getting louder and repeating himself. I responded to him no matter how loud he gets or how many times he repeats himself doesnt change anything or make him correct. I then asked him to find the words in the rules that said what he was saying.

    I then was able to turn around what my grandpa said about what my wife did to show him that what he just said would have been a legal way for my wife was exactly what my mom did. He then tried to proceed to argue that we arent talking about what my mom did right now

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    Wow, that sounds exactly like how things go in my head> first the Te kicks in, furious and righteous as above, but then when I calm down, or Te it all out of my system my Fi kicks in, and forgives and tried to find a balance, even though it's only managable by squishing the first reaction, even though the first reaction is the one that should be sustained because sometimes Fi is too wimpy and lets the world walk all over you.

    Truthfully as I have aged more I am able to sutain the first reaction for longer, and I am more able to squish the Fi that wants to change that reaction to something more accomodating, I feel the pull and tug between the two functions and still can not see how to make them work well together.
    Its a stretch and not along the lines of what most people think of Fi, but what if you try to appease others so you can get out of Te mode and change how you feel inside? Its not doing it for them, its doing it for you. Its what you need, but in order to do that you must back down whether your right or not. Backing down doesnt mean your wrong, just I am tired of dealing with it, just drop it, I am done for now. Some types dont understand it and have to have closure and will keep pushing.

  7. #97
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    What an interesting topic! I did my best to read it all... First off, a book of mine talks about how each type uses processes in their particular function order. It's called Understanding Yourself and Others: An Introduction to the Personality Type Code by Linda V. Berens and Dario Nardi. It says this about ENFPs use of Te as their third function:

    Find relief with extraverted Thinking
    They can enjoy organizing data, space, or clutter to make life flow better. They notice when something is not functioning right. They usually know where they are in a process. They trust empirical thought and want thinking to fit with what is observed as measurable facts. This may involve testing ideas. They can usually lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made.
    When younger, they may lack organization and can wander off task, forget the time, or miss steps. As they grow, time management, goal setting, and follow-through with longer-range plans is easier. They also begin to control their emotional reactions, taking the time to reason what's actually plausible and what consequences are probable. As they embrace logical reasoning, they may become over-confident when making up answers on the fly or may try to definitively prove something using logic. They may argue which interpretation of a situations is right, what organization or method will work correctly, or how to best build on something new. With time they also learn they can't say yes to every new and enchanting possibility that comes along.
    Engaging in extraverted Thinking can be unsettling and disruptive at times. They may confuse objectivity with being blunt or one-up emotionally with others. Or they may compartmentalize interactions with others to sever participation.
    The bolded are things I've personally seen in two very important ENFPs in my life: My sister and a close friend. The odd part is, they use Te very differently. I've only seen Ne Te anger in my sister, and as Wonkavision said, if they feel they've been insulted in some way, you will have HELL to pay. ENFP rage is overwhelming.

    Anyways, I've seen all sorts of arguments here... and I kind of agree with a little bit of everything. I don't think Te in ENFPs always has to be a negative thing... The relief function is supposed to be how you appear playful and childlike... and I've seen this in both of my ENFPs. In my sister, I saw her spend hours organizing a really unnecessarily complicated chore schedule for her and her two roommates, when it could be just as effective to have a rotating schedule. I've seen my ENFP friend get really playful about his arguments, and really domineering about his arguments... a Te kind of forcefulness. He's ask me to listen to a lecture on how God couldn't exist, and I said I would when I got the chance... The next day, while I was doing things around my apartment, he subtly turned on my computer and started playing it for me on Youtube.

    I used to think that growth of your third function was a completely healthy thing, and thought my friend might be a healthier ENFP than my sister just because he seemed like he had his life and work schedule organized, and always kept his room neat. My sister, on the other hand, has always been really messy, and always appears chaotically out of order (although just recently, she's gotten a LOT better about this). But after reading most of this thread... yeah, it CAN be healthy, but it's all about balance. I actually just had a conversation with my friend that seems related... He admitted that up until recently, he spent so much effort focusing on how to portray himself to people instead of actually just -enjoying- the people. Granted, that isn't Te, but I think Te was kind of how he wanted to portray himself. That's why he -appeared- to be so neat and have his life organized. I think he still wants to develop Te, but he's not overly focused on it like he was. In this case, I think my sister has a healthier development... she has a strong Fi and I can't ever see her trying to portray something other than her true self to others. So basically, my friend appeared healthier because his third function seemed more developed than my sister's, but my sister had a more developed Fi, which may make her a healthier ENFP (although her Te still seems really negative).

    Both my sister and my friend are learning how to balance out Te... I think they both need and want it, but it's never going to be as strong as Fi, and Fi needs to be developed along with Te so it evens out. So I wouldn't just discount Te all together as unhealthy... the description of Te use in ENFPs shows a lot of healthy uses. And after all, it STILL is a primary function.
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephMC939 View Post
    What an interesting topic! I did my best to read it all... First off, a book of mine talks about how each type uses processes in their particular function order. It's called Understanding Yourself and Others: An Introduction to the Personality Type Code by Linda V. Berens and Dario Nardi. It says this about ENFPs use of Te as their third function:



    The bolded are things I've personally seen in two very important ENFPs in my life: My sister and a close friend. The odd part is, they use Te very differently. I've only seen Ne Te anger in my sister, and as Wonkavision said, if they feel they've been insulted in some way, you will have HELL to pay. ENFP rage is overwhelming.

    Anyways, I've seen all sorts of arguments here... and I kind of agree with a little bit of everything. I don't think Te in ENFPs always has to be a negative thing... The relief function is supposed to be how you appear playful and childlike... and I've seen this in both of my ENFPs. In my sister, I saw her spend hours organizing a really unnecessarily complicated chore schedule for her and her two roommates, when it could be just as effective to have a rotating schedule. I've seen my ENFP friend get really playful about his arguments, and really domineering about his arguments... a Te kind of forcefulness. He's ask me to listen to a lecture on how God couldn't exist, and I said I would when I got the chance... The next day, while I was doing things around my apartment, he subtly turned on my computer and started playing it for me on Youtube.

    I used to think that growth of your third function was a completely healthy thing, and thought my friend might be a healthier ENFP than my sister just because he seemed like he had his life and work schedule organized, and always kept his room neat. My sister, on the other hand, has always been really messy, and always appears chaotically out of order (although just recently, she's gotten a LOT better about this). But after reading most of this thread... yeah, it CAN be healthy, but it's all about balance. I actually just had a conversation with my friend that seems related... He admitted that up until recently, he spent so much effort focusing on how to portray himself to people instead of actually just -enjoying- the people. Granted, that isn't Te, but I think Te was kind of how he wanted to portray himself. That's why he -appeared- to be so neat and have his life organized. I think he still wants to develop Te, but he's not overly focused on it like he was. In this case, I think my sister has a healthier development... she has a strong Fi and I can't ever see her trying to portray something other than her true self to others. So basically, my friend appeared healthier because his third function seemed more developed than my sister's, but my sister had a more developed Fi, which may make her a healthier ENFP (although her Te still seems really negative).

    Both my sister and my friend are learning how to balance out Te... I think they both need and want it, but it's never going to be as strong as Fi, and Fi needs to be developed along with Te so it evens out. So I wouldn't just discount Te all together as unhealthy... the description of Te use in ENFPs shows a lot of healthy uses. And after all, it STILL is a primary function.
    So the outward anger could be the frustration with not being able to organize the thought which clouds it even more?

  9. #99
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    So the outward anger could be the frustration with not being able to organize the thought which clouds it even more?
    Oy... I'm not REALLY sure about that. I think we need the ENFPs to answer that one. All I know is that my sister freaks out when she feels insulted. Then she hurls out really hurtful things at anyone in her path. But that quote that Wonkavision uses earlier sounds a LOT like her when she's angry:

    Tertiary Te (ExFP): "Unfair!! I have to stick to my guns, I will not be bullied or cheated. Any number of authorities agree with me. All my friends agree with me. Everyone can see that my response is directly mandated by the situation: anything else would be irresponsible. These facts absolutely settle the matter, and there is no point in looking at it any further."
    So I don't know if it's the frustration with not being able to organize her thoughts or not... but she definitely hops into that Te type mode when she's hurt.
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephMC939 View Post
    Oy... I'm not REALLY sure about that. I think we need the ENFPs to answer that one. All I know is that my sister freaks out when she feels insulted. Then she hurls out really hurtful things at anyone in her path. But that quote that Wonkavision uses earlier sounds a LOT like her when she's angry:



    So I don't know if it's the frustration with not being able to organize her thoughts or not... but she definitely hops into that Te type mode when she's hurt.
    Being forced to organize the thought, not the inability. So it would be "the frustration with not being able to organize the thought as quickly as others want you to which clouds it even more?"

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