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  1. #81
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by River View Post
    "What did you do last weekend?"

    "oh, barbecue with the family <bla bla bla>. Saw event horizon with my eldest"
    "Oh, do you like astronomy? I was briefly an astronomy major in college until Applied Physics kicked my ass."

    I know you're interested in astronomy and I file that away about you.

    "Oh, i found that film rather intriguing. What did you think of the concepts presented?" (or, even sneakier, mention a few then slowly branch it out)
    "Oh, wow! Do you like independent films? Know any good indie theaters around here? What's the last film you saw?"

    I know you're into film, maybe I can ask you questions about special effects or something depending on what you say.

    Its a few lines, if they don't bite you waste a short amount of time. If they do, interesting conversation. Difficult?
    Yep, this is basically what I do!
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #82
    Senior Member SciVo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    LOL, I think you'd get if you started like that with me. I'm interested in those things as well, but I don't immediately start that way. And it's funny because those things tend to come out (as SciVo mentions) in the "idle" chat. I mean, in the course of what someone did last weekend they tend to reveal their passion for gardening and their dream of opening a bed and breakfast, ya know? Or that they're wine enthusiasts or have sky diving as a hobby. I find they naturally come out over the course of conversation.
    Yes, exactly! One minute I'm telling them about how I went to a new venue in a different part of town, the next they're telling me about how they used to live there before the gentrification, and their cousin was a great up-and-comer in gangsta rap before committing suicide; and then all of a sudden I'm empathizing with their years-old, softened-but-living grief, all just because of "hai how was ur w33k3nd."

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't think SciVo was suggesting approaching it as a first conversation in the elevator. More that if you are talking with a colleague or something, you learn a lot about them through hearing about their interests/lack thereof regarding food and music. I love talking about that sort of thing and it often does evolve into something deeper.

    I understand wanting to go right in for the meaningful stuff, but what LA is suggesting sounds to me like the emotional equivalent of people a person who insists on foregoing all courtship rituals or foreplay and is surprised when the other party isn't ready to have sex on demand. Maybe I have misunderstood, but I'm unlikely to tell anyone my thoughts or talk about anything meaningful if they cannot even put up with hearing about something that semi-matters to me for a couple of minutes and I can do the same with them. And if you want to forego all of the conventional conversational rituals, it does have consequences. I suppose it's a matter of weighing your boredom or inconvenience (which wouldn't have to be either depending on how you look at it) against the social benefits and possibility of getting to understand people better.
    Again, yes exactly! I used to loathe small talk, but with a great deal of experimentation and practice, I've learned just a couple of powerful tricks. One is the importance of initial proportionality -- keeping the depth of a conversational gambit proportional to the depth of the real relationship -- and the other is how the skill of demonstrating real liking and interest draws out the interesting stuff that most people hide deep because it's connected in one way or another to still-tender hurts.
    INFP ~ Fi/Ne/Ni/Te ~ 9-2-4 sp/so

  3. #83
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    From what I'm understanding LA to be saying is that if she's in line with Jane Doe in the grocery store, if she can't find out those meaty parts of her then she's not interested. I say I don't need those meaty parts to be interested and satisfied, casually and even if I were interested, I have a good idea of how to get my interest satsified but I would feel like that would be getting too personal too quickly and that's when I have some sort of Fe block, like I'm overstepping my boundaries with someone I don't know well. It still seems like a Fe block, with LA only it's manifesting in "I'm not interested." Now if this is a person I interact with frequently, like at work, I need to know them in more depth because our relationship is different. LA are you saying you wouldn't be interested in any case if you couldn't get to the meaty parts? To me these two scenarios are in different categories so of course I wouldn't respond the same way.
    Eh, eh. I don't talk to people in the grocery store. Unless I know them.

    See, you're forgetting the part where I said: I don't do a whole lot of Fe-ing/casual conversation. So there is no need to gauge the level of it. Jane Doe in the grocery store can just keep shopping, like she should be.

    In the case of the person at work, yes, I'd want more interesting conversation.

  4. #84
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SciVo View Post
    Yes, exactly! One minute I'm telling them about how I went to a new venue in a different part of town, the next they're telling me about how they used to live there before the gentrification, and their cousin was a great up-and-comer in gangsta rap before committing suicide; and then all of a sudden I'm empathizing with their years-old, softened-but-living grief, all just because of "hai how was ur w33k3nd."
    Yes! One of my coworkers nearly broke down in the bathroom once about how she hates living alone (she's an older woman) and how lonely she is and fears dying in her house and no one finding her. This is all based on my asking "So how are your grandkids?" Of course, I knew she had daughter's because when I went in her office I saw their pictures on her desk and inquired.

    Again, yes exactly! I used to loathe small talk, but with a great deal of experimentation and practice, I've learned just a couple of powerful tricks. One is the importance of initial proportionality -- keeping the depth of a conversational gambit proportional to the depth of the real relationship -- and the other is how the skill of demonstrating real liking and interest draws out the interesting stuff that most people hide deep because it's connected in one way or another to still-tender hurts.
    And sometimes you get things you weren't even prepared for or expected to get, which is both good and bad. A certain song would illicit a certain memory, a picture of a pet on a keychain garners this really wonderful story, a comment about a hairstyle reveals all sorts of insecurities. It's quite amazing to me.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #85
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    In the case of the person at work, yes, I'd want more interesting conversation.
    Glad I never have to work in applied physics
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #86
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Or against the possibility of signifying something that you didn't intend to signify (e.g., that you don't respect the person, that you don't take them seriously, that they aren't worth your time, so on). The consequences of ignoring my professor, for example, would be that they wouldn't trust me, or that they would see me as uninterested in maintaining collegial relationships and therefore expendable. After all, what prof wants graduate students who have no chance of maintaining their connection with them once they're full blown, accomplished professors themselves?
    Professors/bosses are one of those "necessary" cases where I grin and bear it.

  7. #87
    Senior Member SciVo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yes! One of my coworkers nearly broke down in the bathroom once about how she hates living alone (she's an older woman) and how lonely she is and fears dying in her house and no one finding her. This is all based on my asking "So how are your grandkids?" Of course, I knew she had daughter's because when I went in her office I saw their pictures on her desk and inquired.

    ---

    And sometimes you get things you weren't even prepared for or expected to get, which is both good and bad. A certain song would illicit a certain memory, a picture of a pet on a keychain garners this really wonderful story, a comment about a hairstyle reveals all sorts of insecurities. It's quite amazing to me.
    And I have no idea of what distinction to draw between our obviously similar approaches, except for fidelia's that I quoted earlier. I definitely remain reserved. I have to consciously remind myself to express my reciprocation of others' interest! But I've found it immensely rewarding to do so, and I want people to know that.
    INFP ~ Fi/Ne/Ni/Te ~ 9-2-4 sp/so

  8. #88
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    I think Fi lets other people be affected by it aka the "green smog" or the "bright pick me up" that ProteanMix once described.

    Fe is more utilitarian like other people have pointed it - I don't think Fe aspires to make you feel what it is feeling. Rather, the Fe user will want to convey upon you exactly how they feel.

    Fe: I don't make you feel happy because I'm happy. I make you feel happy because I want you to feel happy, even if I myself am sad or angry or tired, etc.

    Fe doesn't assume that you can feel what I feel. Fe does not want you to mimic it necessarily. But it has a goal. I can gesticulate, hug, raise my voice, point, etc. to convey what I'm feeling. Or else my Fe is directing my emotions at you to make a point. Fe doesn't so much feel for itself but is aware and cares about the emotions/happiness/comfort of others. Fi cares about a value system that cares about others but is consumed by itself and talks to itself because it is introverted.

    Fi feels period. The Fi container (namely us) is leaky like that. Fi thinks it can feel what you feel and maybe you can feel what I feel. We don't necessarily try to extravert or convey our emotions to you, because it just is. Fi thinks it is psychic. Fe speaks.

    Does that make sense at all?

    That's my take on Fe.

    I like what OneMoreTime and SkyWard said about it.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  9. #89
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Ok wow, thanks for all the people who've chipped in, this was most enlightning and a discussion which was very much due on these boards.

    Protean, you did a wonderful job of describing indeed how you can get to the meaningful conversations. LA, I'm with you on skipping small talk, but I'll bear through it if I feel that there might be more interesting convo following and will implement Proteans bag of tricks for that to do so, but it seriously drains me. Which also makes me wonder...what's the difference between INFJ's Fe and NFP's Fi..coz I'm still not seeing that

    I'm also thinking that possibly, NFPs use Ne instead of Fe, to skip small talk all together. I tend to go up to someone only when they have piqued my interest somehow, and I'll open with a statement about that curiosity and have the conversation spin off from there on, effectively skipping small talk. However, this is not always possible.

    I would love to hear from both ENFJs and INFJS how they experience deeper bond. Protean, you've described how you open the conversation and finally get to the 'meaty bits', and LA, how you just prefer to jump in...but what happens after? How does Fe manifest itself in deeper connections, how do experience it?

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  10. #90
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I'm also thinking that possibly, NFPs use Ne instead of Fe, to skip small talk all together. I tend to go up to someone only when they have piqued my interest somehow, and I'll open with a statement about that curiosity and have the conversation spin off from there on, effectively skipping small talk.

    ENTP chiming in to say this is what I actually do most of the time and aim to do all of the time, because small talk makes me want to gnaw off one of my fingers and fling it just to create enough of a diversion to escape.

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