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  1. #91
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yes! One of my coworkers nearly broke down in the bathroom once about how she hates living alone (she's an older woman) and how lonely she is and fears dying in her house and no one finding her. This is all based on my asking "So how are your grandkids?" Of course, I knew she had daughter's because when I went in her office I saw their pictures on her desk and inquired.



    And sometimes you get things you weren't even prepared for or expected to get, which is both good and bad. A certain song would illicit a certain memory, a picture of a pet on a keychain garners this really wonderful story, a comment about a hairstyle reveals all sorts of insecurities. It's quite amazing to me.
    i admire your ability to weild Fe as such a honed skill! i think Fe being a primary versus secondary versus tertiary function makes a lot of difference. i could prolly take some good lessons from you in using small talk to segway into deeper conversation. i just don't have the patience for that. but that is not really my expertise anyway. some fjs (efjs, nfjs, sfjs) have had more time to practice this perhaps if they work or are involved in more community gatherings.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Glad I never have to work in applied physics
    you are such a kook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Professors/bosses are one of those "necessary" cases where I grin and bear it.
    i'm getting the feeling you prefer to initiate convos. do you respond well when someone initiates with you? or do you just generally prefer not to be bothered by people?

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I think Fi lets other people be affected by it aka the "green smog" or the "bright pick me up" that ProteanMix once described.

    Fe is more utilitarian like other people have pointed it - I don't think Fe aspires to make you feel what it is feeling. Rather, the Fe user will want to convey upon you exactly how they feel.

    Fe: I don't make you feel happy because I'm happy. I make you feel happy because I want you to feel happy, even if I myself am sad or angry or tired, etc.

    Fe doesn't assume that you can feel what I feel. Fe does not want you to mimic it necessarily. But it has a goal. I can gesticulate, hug, raise my voice, point, etc. to convey what I'm feeling. Or else my Fe is directing my emotions at you to make a point. Fe doesn't so much feel for itself but is aware and cares about the emotions/happiness/comfort of others. Fi cares about a value system that cares about others but is consumed by itself and talks to itself because it is introverted.

    Fi feels period. The Fi container (namely us) is leaky like that. Fi thinks it can feel what you feel and maybe you can feel what I feel. We don't necessarily try to extravert or convey our emotions to you, because it just is. Fi thinks it is psychic. Fe speaks.

    Does that make sense at all?

    That's my take on Fe.

    I like what OneMoreTime and SkyWard said about it.
    it makes sense to me. i am going to quote from my functions book about Fe:

    Fe is The Guide which coordinates people and things to harmoniously achieve group and individual goals. initiating, building, and maintaining personal relationships is a primary goal of Fe. Loss of personal relationship through disharmony is to be avoided at almost any cost. Even intellectual arguments are normally avoided out of fear that the discussion may turn disharmonious.

    Fe draws out other people's beliefs, emotions, or ideas and tends to focus on what they share with her. Often the Guide will share personal information in an attempt to bond with other people. After identifying other people's needs the Guide will try, when possible, to meet those needs, frequently at the expense of meeting her own needs.

    In order to smoothly relate to other people, the extraverted Feeling Guide internalizes cultural values [this sounds Fi a bit], treats them as if they are personal values, and uses them to drive decisions. When functioning in a group or on a team, the Guide seeks to maintain group harmony and makes sure each person is recognized and taken care of.

    Often the Guide attempts to educate other people as to appropriate behaviors in given situations.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    maybe she just wants to vent and make you understand what she's feeling? my istp husband can't help but try to jump right to fixing it. he gets what i'm saying before i'm done ranting, and has already used his Ti to come up with a solution. so when i stop to take a breath, he switches in to solution mode. but i don't want him to fix it. i want him to simply understand and validate. that's it. i can fix it myself after i vent it. after i vent it, i can move to understand it. all i want from him is to actively listen.
    My wife vents 99% of the time about how others just dont care enough about other people. My fixit mode is to try and explain thats how people are you cant change them all you can do is not care as much.

    Her is what I see as the essence of Fe. At christmas time my wife will shop sales and try to get things as cheap as possible so she can get everyone more toys. She enjoys figuring out the possibilities that makes everyone happy. When we take vacations she really enjoys figuring out what all we can do, this is Ni. She will call me, what do you think about this, and this, and this, and this, etc. It starts about 6 months to a year prior to the trip. She figures out how to get the maximum amount of fun in for everyone and to do this we need a tight schedule all the tickets are bought before hand to make sure we dont get there and realize its sold out or something or sit there all trying to figure out what to do(we all know how this ends up with something as simple as where to go to eat). This is the essence of Fe. With this focus comes the sacrifice of self and the frustration of how no one else cares as much as they do. You cant have one without the other so to me this is also the essence. It is the yin and yang. You can try to get around it by focusing on those that are in need, what this does is remove the "possibility" of them actually being able to help you and you can reason that they do care they just "cant" do anything to return it. The thing is people in need dont always want to fix the problem and then Fe will put more into that person than that person wants to put in themselves and gets frustrated.

    On a side note actually trying to explain and understand these things helps me self-realize certain things I have done that would really drive Fe dom and aux types into frustration. Times when they wanted to help me more than I wanted to help myself. I think its an INFJ in particular that I really did this to. ENFJ types i guess are better at dealing with the consequences of Fe dom than aux Fe users are.

  3. #93
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    More about the small talk: How would you feel if you mentioned something briefly in passing to someone, it was important to you (for example, Amar, I know about the connection you feel with animals you've mentioned it on the forums several times), but it wasn't delved into in depth, but this person remembered that you said it, recognized that it was something important to you, and revisited it later when maybe the situation was more conducive to a more.

    I cannot emphasize the importance of this for me. It's my main people information gathering function and I don't understand myself how there are other ways to get this information. It gets connected to everything. And I also can't emphasize how much noticing the details of another person I do. It is very much like aphrodite said: it's body language, tone of voice, small little gestures, so much little stuff that people notice but maybe I take it a step further and actively process this into a conversation or something? It doesn't require effort for me to pay attention enough to other people do to this. I really like what Udog said in another thread about it's like dim fireworks for him. To me I still think, it's a matter of paying attention not that this stuff is going over most people, it's just that it's more sensory input to be ignored or selectively paid attention to. For me though, it can't be ignored.

    For deeper connections, I think it gets more nebulous. Like most people, it's allowing yourself to be vulnerable. For me that takes the form of revealing more about myself, how I think, how I feel, why I feel and think the way I do, what things and people mean to me, why the mean what they do (or don't), my fears, things I worry about.

    It's a different flavor of emotional expression. I'm not particularly reserved, even casually, about showing or expressing a range of emotion. I don't care if someone I just met sees me frustrated or hurt about something external ("Why the hell is there only one line open!"), but seeing me frustrated and hurt about something internal is different ("Do they trust me enough do this?"). It's more about seeing things that are salient to who I am, delving into my self-concept and that of the other person that signifies deepening intimacy. Basically self-revealing information becomes more high stakes: more to lose, more to gain.

    As far as how I relate to the other person, Pink is always saying about how she doesn't let go of people. I swear, I feel strongly enough about my loved ones that I have become absolutely relentless on their behalf. I have felt unyielding, single-minded focus on the behalf of the people I love and have pulled undiscovered stamina to fight and destroy for them. This is basically a minefield and the number one source of conflict and loyalty with the people I care about the most because often it's translates into not allowing them to do on their own behalf. There's a John Legend song called "Ordinary People" that pretty much encapsulates this idea:

    This ain't a movie no
    No fairy tale conclusion ya'll
    It gets more confusing everyday
    Sometimes it's heaven sent
    Then we head back to hell again
    We kiss then we make up on the way

    If this doesn't happen on some level, I don't feel like we've really bonded. It's almost like I need to get into a fight with you in order to show that we're going somewhere. We need to storm and I'm not really afraid of it. I'm not saying be in a continuous state of warfare, but this is a mountain that needs to be climbed. What I seek is to get to that other side where this is a greater transparency and intimacy with the other person because you know you've gotten through those unsavory meaty bits. Because not all meaty bits are about dreams and aspirations, some are about deep hurt and scars that manifest themselves in ways that are difficult to deal with and overcome. To me it's about creating a space where all of this can occur.

    The problem is if someone doesn't respond with the same tenacity of feeling that I do, it really does translate in my mind that they don't care as much as I do. I realize is not true but it's still there and I can become resentful. Which is why, honestly, not many people get to this point with me because it's a lot of damn work. It's more of a whole body effort and more draining and I don't have the energy to dole this out to everyone I know. It's also why I prefer to attach this type of feeling to people rather than a person.

    As usual, I end this with I only speak for me. I realize that for some FJs this is not at all descriptive of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    i admire your ability to weild Fe as such a honed skill! i think Fe being a primary versus secondary versus tertiary function makes a lot of difference. i could prolly take some good lessons from you in using small talk to segway into deeper conversation. i just don't have the patience for that. but that is not really my expertise anyway. some fjs (efjs, nfjs, sfjs) have had more time to practice this perhaps if they work or are involved in more community gatherings.
    Thank you. It is not with false humility to say that it just came to me. I think I have the natural inclination to be interested in these things, but it has been an effort to cultivate. I read a lot of stuff about interpersonal communication and how to get along with people and incorporate that into what I do. And just like I know use this ability to connect to people I also very much know how and use this ability to make people feel like scum and worthless. Not particularly proud of it, but I can do that too.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 09-03-2009 at 10:19 AM. Reason: merged posts
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    If this doesn't happen on some level, I don't feel like we've really bonded. It's almost like I need to get into a fight with you in order to show that we're going somewhere. We need to storm and I'm not really afraid of it. I'm not saying be in a continuous state of warfare, but this is a mountain that needs to be climbed. What I seek is to get to that other side where this is a greater transparency and intimacy with the other person because you know you've gotten through those unsavory meaty bits. Because not all meaty bits are about dreams and aspirations, some are about deep hurt and scars that manifest themselves in ways that are difficult to deal with and overcome. To me it's about creating a space where all of this can occur.

    The problem is if someone doesn't respond with the same tenacity of feeling that I do, it really does translate in my mind that they don't care as much as I do. I realize is not true but it's still there and I can become resentful. Which is why, honestly, not many people get to this point with me because it's a lot of damn work. It's more of a whole body effort and more draining and I don't have the energy to dole this out to everyone I know. It's also why I prefer to attach this type of feeling to people rather than a person.

    As usual, I end this with I only speak for me. I realize that for some FJs this is not at all descriptive of them.
    Why do these things have to be a storm to get somewhere? Hurt and crying is easy for me to talk through, not a fight or warfare. I guess this depends on what you learned. I have been with people who couldnt talk through anger so I have never learned how. With my parents one would always shutdown when arguments started. All I know to do is listen and not respond. I then decide on my own what I want to do. People think I get run over because of this. Sometimes I get yelled at and do what I was yelled at for, sometimes I get yelled at and ignore it. Sometimes I ignore it because I dont want people to think I get run over. People dont understand this way of handling things and initially think I am weak because thats how it appears.

  5. #95
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Fe doesn't assume that you can feel what I feel. Fe does not want you to mimic it necessarily. But it has a goal. I can gesticulate, hug, raise my voice, point, etc. to convey what I'm feeling. Or else my Fe is directing my emotions at you to make a point. Fe doesn't so much feel for itself but is aware and cares about the emotions/happiness/comfort of others. Fi cares about a value system that cares about others but is consumed by itself and talks to itself because it is introverted.

    Fi feels period. The Fi container (namely us) is leaky like that. Fi thinks it can feel what you feel and maybe you can feel what I feel. We don't necessarily try to extravert or convey our emotions to you, because it just is. Fi thinks it is psychic. Fe speaks.
    Descriptions like this make me think I need to change my type to INTJ. And I would have, except I'm entirely certain that I'm an F type with dominant Ni, and INFJ descriptions fit me perfectly. Fe is always made to seem like it has none of its own feelings, but I have plenty of my own. It's not all about the other person. The only difference, I guess, is that I let this feeling show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Which also makes me wonder...what's the difference between INFJ's Fe and NFP's Fi..coz I'm still not seeing that

    I'm also thinking that possibly, NFPs use Ne instead of Fe, to skip small talk all together. I tend to go up to someone only when they have piqued my interest somehow, and I'll open with a statement about that curiosity and have the conversation spin off from there on, effectively skipping small talk. However, this is not always possible.
    I've said this before: I don't think there is any strict dividing line between Fi and Fe. Many people I know are proficient in both, which wouldn't be suggested by their type's function order. But I've never been a big proponent of cognitive functions. I'd rather use dichotomies as they are always applicable.

    I also do what you've said about Ne.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    i'm getting the feeling you prefer to initiate convos. do you respond well when someone initiates with you? or do you just generally prefer not to be bothered by people?
    I have no preference.

    -------

    Now, I'm going to clarify my position because I was slightly tired last night and my statements seem to have been distorted:

    • I am not averse to opening statements such as "How are you doing?" I just dislike such statements as a means of filling up space, when the person is clearly not interested in the responses.
    • All conversations with me do not have to be about deeper topics. But if I'm going to discuss mundane topics, I expect the person to at least be genuinely interested in what I'm saying rather than just, like I said, filling up space.
    • I do not jump into deeper topics (except with close friends). There is an opening period. Which is dependent on the person, so I can't elaborate on what that opening period consists of.

  6. #96
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    For me, one of the indications of being close to someone is the ability for both of us to show our less attractive sides as well as our good ones. (Someone seeing that I am stressed, sad, tired, busy, upset and vice-versa with them). I can afford to show my weaknesses to someone that I know I can trust not to misuse that knowledge. I will also risk conflict with them. With those I am less invested in, I do not bother. If I care about someone, I will actually risk them getting upset at me if I can see something that is going to hurt our relationship or that is going to be an ongoing problem. In addition to those "downsides" though, we have a much realer, relationship where they will see deeper into my thoughts, feelings and who I am. I will trust them with more and also invest much more heavily in being there for them. I will be more likely to impose myself on them when I see that they need support rather than waiting for them to ask. They will be the recipient of thoughtfulness, little gifts, expressions of appreciation, and unexpected humour.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    For deeper connections, I think it gets more nebulous. Like most people, it's allowing yourself to be vulnerable. For me that takes the form of revealing more about myself, how I think, how I feel, why I feel and think the way I do, what things and people mean to me, why the mean what they do (or don't), my fears, things I worry about.
    This is the one thing I am extremely open about. How I think, why I think the way I do, what I think. Would it bother you if your SO or someone you were dating was open with this to someone of the opposite sex? I dont hide my thought process or why i think or do things and I get the feeling like this causes her to feel uncomfortable because in this way I am very open. I am very open with my thoughts.

    I think this is more one of the essences of ENFJ as opposed to Fe though in general and probably tied to an inferior Ti.

  8. #98
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Why do these things have to be a storm to get somewhere? Hurt and crying is easy for me to talk through, not a fight or warfare. I guess this depends on what you learned. I have been with people who couldnt talk through anger so I have never learned how. With my parents one would always shutdown when arguments started. All I know to do is listen and not respond. I then decide on my own what I want to do. People think I get run over because of this. Sometimes I get yelled at and do what I was yelled at for, sometimes I get yelled at and ignore it. Sometimes I ignore it because I dont want people to think I get run over. People dont understand this way of handling things and initially think I am weak because thats how it appears.
    I don't feel like it's warfare, to me it's like "now we're getting somewhere!" I know that people fight and argue and it doesn't scare me to fight and argue with someone and nor does it always indicate to me that if I do fight and arg

    All of my friends, we had a turning point in the relationship. Either they were going to be those people that I do that casual Fe with, you know, that whole fond but not in love thing, or I'm going to be able to get real with you. I need to have the freedom and comfortableness. This is why I am very boundary conscious. I have never understood when I read Fe profiles about having bad boundaries, I have pretty good boundaries and I know why they're there. I know those six in one hand/half dozen in another traits I have: that I can be demanding, that I can bulldoze, I can be bitchy and vindictive. I'm not afraid to admit I can be those things and I can be those good Fe things too. I feel like I'm being responsible by keeping those things under wraps and not coming out the gate like that towards people. Which is why when I can be ALL THOSE THINGS good and bad, the relationship is getting more real between me and another person.

    Another person may find this indicative of something being horribly wrong and that's OK. IME, to ignore these basic facts of being intimate with someone and not develop mechanisms to deal with them or be caught by surprise like I didn't know it would happen is foolishly naive. I don't expect rainbows and butterflies is what I'm saying, I expect a mix.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I don't feel like it's warfare, to me it's like "now we're getting somewhere!" I know that people fight and argue and it doesn't scare me to fight and argue with someone and nor does it always indicate to me that if I do fight and arg

    All of my friends, we had a turning point in the relationship. Either they were going to be those people that I do that casual Fe with, you know, that whole fond but not in love thing, or I'm going to be able to get real with you. I need to have the freedom and comfortableness. This is why I am very boundary conscious. I have never understood when I read Fe profiles about having bad boundaries, I have pretty good boundaries and I know why they're there. I know those six in one hand/half dozen in another traits I have: that I can be demanding, that I can bulldoze, I can be bitchy and vindictive. I'm not afraid to admit I can be those things and I can be those good Fe things too. I feel like I'm being responsible by keeping those things under wraps and not coming out the gate like that towards people. Which is why when I can be ALL THOSE THINGS good and bad, the relationship is getting more real between me and another person.

    Another person may find this indicative of something being horribly wrong and that's OK. IME, to ignore these basic facts of being intimate with someone and not develop mechanisms to deal with them or be caught by surprise like I didn't know it would happen is foolishly naive. I don't expect rainbows and butterflies is what I'm saying, I expect a mix.
    If you have no problems arguing how do you feel comfortable handling hurt or sensitive subjects. Things that make you cry or sad?

  10. #100
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    If you have no problems arguing how do you feel comfortable handling hurt or sensitive subjects. Things that make you cry or sad?
    OK, well there's a difference between dealing with my own hurt and sadness and someone else's. Sensitive subjects is such a broad category so it really depends on what the subject is and if I have a point of reference. If I have no frame of reference all I can do is listen, comfort, and/or sympathize. If I can relate, besides doing those things I can offer my perspective or how the similar situation affected me.

    For example, this may be morbid, but I find it comforting to talk with people who have dealt with cancer or who have a loved one who has had cancer--survived or died. I feel like that is a point of connection between me and that person and if they're willing to go there and talk about it in depth, so am I. Lately, I've found that I'm talking with some of my older coworkers (who haven't pried and been royal pains) about taking care of an sick and elderly parent. That's really something people in my age group (under 30) don't relate to. I've been talking to certain people about death. A couple of people I know have mentioned how layoffs are affecting their sense of self and value as a person, how unsteady and vulnerable this makes them feel.

    It depends on context. Like I said, if someone is real, genuine, interested and willing to go there with me, I'll go there as well.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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