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[ENFP] INTJ trying to understand an ENFP's actions (PART 2)

thescientist

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For those of you who followed my original thread/dilemma here and were wondering how it's been going, I've created a new thread to follow up.

I decided to ignore/treat this ENFP in the same way I treat the rest of my coworkers since ENFP had made it non-verbally clear that he is no longer romantically interested. He actually finally ceases ALL flirtation with me, perhaps due to my ignoring him. It seems something in his conscience was bothering about the situation, because one day at work, he asks me "Are we okay?". So I respond in the most non-chalant manner "YEAH, why? did you think i was angry at you?" And he says, "yeah, i was acting like a blah blah". Good, so he gets his closure in the most (in my opinion) pathetic and non-confrontational way.

Anyhow, I just wanted him to realize that I'm NOT drooling for him or on his tail, and that I'm fine if he's not interested. But here's the kicker...

I remember at a company picnic a long time ago, before the dates, while he was trying to get me to go out with him, a coworker asked him about a girl IN MY PRESENCE, and he completely denied being in a relationship: "nah she's not my girlfriend, she's just a friend." And the coworker suspiciously replied, 'suure'. He emphasized his 'single-ness' while I was around. Fine, I take his word for it.

So after all this time, and now that we're just back to amicable coworkers, I hear through the grapevine in the office that he does indeed have a gf, but it's unsure how serious the relationship is. Which means he had a gf the whole time he was going out with me and kissing me. She lives a few hours away, which I realize is why he always goes to that city once/twice a month. And this is why he never liked to call our dates "dates" claiming that word was TOO SERIOUS. Pieces finally coming together...

I almost contacted her directly to confirm she really was his gf as I was able to find her contact info, but I held back, because I was an emotional and irrational mess after finding out.

I've been so conflicted about confronting him on this, because of the time that's passed already. However, the ANGER that I feel consumes me. I'm not the type of person who holds things in. I confront and MOVE ON. HONESTY is something that I value beyond anything else. Being a NO BS type of person I expect the same in return. I feel like he's taken me for an idiot and I don't want him to think he got away with it. I dont care if she's a friend with benefits/f-buddy, I still think I deserved to know up front. I dont know if that's how it works, but sleeping with someone and going around kissing other girls just doesn't jive with MY values.

If I confront him, I would just want to let him know that it's ok if he was not interested in me, I'm not upset about that, but lying to me and deceiving me was just plain wrong and hurtful. Not only unfair to me, but unfair to his gf. He will probably deny having a gf, but my blinds are off now. I can see through the BS. My gut/intuition always warned me. How stupid of me to ignore. No wonder I never let my guard down with him.

I've continued to treat him amicably/casual at work regardless of the latter.

To confront or not to confront? Is it worth it at this point? How would you go about it?
Should I contact the GF to confirm if it's true?

He leaves the country on vacation in a week for a whole month, so it would be my last opportunity before he returns from his trip.

ENFP's and their DAMN GGS syndrome. Screw that...
 
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thescientist

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If it matters, he's definitely still physically attracted to me and I sense that he likes me. However, we just have very different values, and he definitely jumped to a lot of conclusions about me w/o giving me the opportunity to explain myself.

I find that so contradictory since he HATES it when others judge him. What happened to living by the standards you demand of others? Angry rambling...
 

INTP

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Why do you care?

Whats ggs syndrome?
 

thescientist

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Why do you care?

Because I want some friggin closure, because I dont want to harbor these feelings anymore, because I work with the bastard, because he blatantly lied to my face about not being with anyone, because I'm sick and tired of the BS, because I don't think I've ever been deceived before in this manner.
I have plenty of reasons to care and a sense of justice that wont stay quiet.

Whats ggs syndrome?
GGS: Grass is greener on the other side...
 

Owl

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If my girlfriend were cheating on me, I'd want to know--even if it meant the guy she was cheating on me with was the one to break the news. However, if he knew she had a boyfriend before he got involved with her...

But you didn't know.

The way I see it, if you tell the other girl, you're doing her a favor. This guy is no good, and she should be apprised of this fact before she gets in too deep with this douche.

edit: but you do have to work with this guy... ick.
 

Amargith

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Yeah he sounds like he's still working out his value-system and got overwhelmed by his attraction to you. Or..he's just a jerk. Either way, he needs to get a spine and has some growing up to do. Fi doesn't like to be judged, but there's no way of knowing before getting to know the person which values it includes I guess, and discovering said values (basically developping Fi) is a painful process which can causes the person to do hypocritical things while figuring it out.

If you *were* to have an indept discussion about this with him (if that were even an option at this time, which I know it isn't), he might have some very odd logic behind it to explain it (we weren't dating, it was just a kiss, I'm not serious with the other person, I wanted to see where it was going before I made the decision, etc...), or he might just admit that he was plain in over his head and didn't see it coming, which is why he stopped wooing you after the date where you kissed. These are educated guesses though...

If you *want* him to know that you know something's going on..I personally would go passive aggressive. Talk about how you value honesty in men and how men are often such a let-down in that departement, preferably when he's in the room while you're talking to another co-worker, or, even to him, but make sure you can keep your expression completely innocent and give him only a glare at the end of the speach. Also, ask him how his out-of-town trip was with a smile and end with a glare again when you walk away. And after you do this, realize he will know that you know, and let go yourself. Coz holding on to this isn't going to be healthy for you, and he aint worth it. I wouldn't tell the gf, you don't know *what* they are, and it's a whole ugly mess to get stuck in especially if you have to work with him (he might get vindictive).

Chances are he'll get the hint and come asking about it, and he might explain himself. Up to you if you want to listen. Make sure you have your BS radar on.

Or, he might deny that you actually know anything, or deny to you knowing what you're on about (believing his own lies basically). At this point, I'd just not consider him worth my time, until I see some significant personal growth (though you might have decided this earlier already :D)
 

SciVo

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It's not worth it. Consider: what do you want? For your universal human psychological needs to be met. What needs? In this case, your needs for respect of worthiness, reciprocity of exclusivity and non-betrayal of trust. Can you get more of what you want by confronting him? No, he'll go from an evasive jerk to a defensive jerk. All you can do is empathize with your own needs -- explicitly verbally recognizing your right to have them met -- and then take actions that will help with that... such as avoiding the jerk (and maybe seeking a worthy guy, if you feel like it). But I really don't see how there's anything you can say to him that will help actually meet those needs, as opposed to in a fantasy where he's suddenly overcome by remorse and tearfully admits how wrong he was (not gonna happen).
 

Kalach

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I don't know if this makes sense, but it occurred to me to ask a question, it just popped into my head, thinking that if you know the answer to it, then as a corollary you'll have something in hand to understand something about what's going on now. The question was, "What are you going to do with the next ENFP you meet?"
 

thescientist

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Or, he might deny that you actually know anything, or deny to you knowing what you're on about (believing his own lies basically). At this point, I'd just not consider him worth my time, until I see some significant personal growth (though you might have decided this earlier already :D)

Amargith, thanks so much for following my story. I guess I wanted to believe that he really wasn't so bad. I'm still very naive and innocent in a lot of ways.

What happened to ENFP's caring about hurting others' feelings or caring about what others think of them? :(

I guess in his attempt to not further hurt me, he would most likely resort to lying anyway...
 

thescientist

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I don't know if this makes sense, but it occurred to me to ask a question, it just popped into my head, thinking that if you know the answer to it, then as a corollary you'll have something in hand to understand something about what's going on now. The question was, "What are you going to do with the next ENFP you meet?"

If it's a male who's interested --> Not trust them. :dont:

or :angry:
 

Wellspring

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I once had a slightly similar situation with a coworker. More trust issues than honesty issues, but anyway. I decided to write him a letter so I would not get too furious to be able to make my point effectively.

Once the letter was done, I read it, and I knew it wouldn't do any good. He would deny, evade, ignore, pretend, and not even really understand what disturbs me. So I let sleeping dogs lie. Turned completely 'ice queen' towards him, polite but cool, and that upset him more than anything else I could do. Of course he didn't dare talk to me directly about this, and I ignored all the hints. Because any discussion won't be worth it. The guy has too different values. I can’t start his reeducation at this stage.

Try to write such a letter. It's a good exercise: it made me feel better, clear-headed, and calmer. It also made me realize that some people just can't understand the enormity of their misdeeds, you can shout till you are blue in the face and show illustrative diagrams – they will just. Not. Get. It.

It's hard not to be able to make your point. But please understand this guy has serious issues, and probably isn't as self-aware as you are. If he could be so dishonest, he isn't likely to suddenly admit openly that he was in the wrong. For all you know, he might delude himself into thinking that since he wasn't calling the times you spent together 'dates' everything he was doing was perfectly ok…
 

Amargith

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Amargith, thanks so much for following my story. I guess I wanted to believe that he really wasn't so bad. I'm still very naive and innocent in a lot of ways.

What happened to ENFP's caring about hurting others' feelings or caring about what others think of them? :(

I guess in his attempt to not further hurt me, he would most likely resort to lying anyway...

Oh hunny, even we hurt people in the process of figuring out ourselvse, as much as we don't want to, or deny to do so. I know I have in my day, and I'm not proud of it (not in this way but still...). ENFPs are far from perfect in this area, even if we would like to be. It takes time and self-reflection to figure out what you want in life, what values you hold dear and how you will navigate the murky waters and the many temptations in life to fully adhere to those values (Fi), especially when life is filled with wonderful options (Ne). And it takes skill to be able to navigate through life in the way you want to succesfully.

I don't know him or you, but I'd like to think that you turned his head so much that he couldn't resist and got taken by surprise. INTJs will do that to us :blush:

I had the same going with mine when I finally met him while dating someone else. I was able to stop him from kissing me..but the electricity, the passion, the entire weekend of head in the clouds...I've never cheated on anyone, but I've been close, because those feelings were so intoxicating.

And..fwiw, I've seen a female INTJ do the same thing with an INFP in my group of friends. NFP-NTJ connections..:wubbie:
 

SciVo

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I guess in his attempt to not further hurt me, he would most likely resort to lying anyway...

We humans are naturally self-centered and thoughtless, by nature. Naturally. Because nature made us that way. Not requiring any particular fancy, artificial cause. It just happens. So, the simplest explanation of bad behavior is self-centered thoughtlessness. Therefore, he'd resort to lying to avoid getting hurt long before he'd get around to lying to avoid hurting you.

I'm not saying that he won't lie. I'm just saying that he won't be thinking of your feelings when he does it. Because he's human, and therefore self-centered and thoughtless by default, requiring special activation of higher potential just to avoid that sad fate.
 

Kalach

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If it's a male who's interested --> Not trust them. :dont:

or :angry:

Yeah but, see, sad to say, I'm not so sure this guy's behaviour is so very far away from normal for an ENFP. A young ENFP anyway. Under 30.

So maybe the next guy gets the benefit of you knowing he might well try by nature to pull some shifty not quite actually strategic strategy, and you knowing to call WTF at the right times, and he gets to decide if he'll shape up or not.

But there's something else as well. Like, why they behave that way. And is there ever a time to count them as trustworthy and strong.

ENFPS had better be. They had definitely better have ways of being trustworthy and strong. So, what counts as trustworthy and strong? And what's your role? Real questions to be answered by the real people.

Knowing that crap might be a better closure than bringing this guy down.


PS. Another question: if you literally never had to actually look at this guy, would this issue still be live?

(I don't know if that's a worthy question or not. Maybe not.)
 

thescientist

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PS. Another question: if you literally never had to actually look at this guy, would this issue still be live?

(I don't know if that's a worthy question or not. Maybe not.)

It would probably dissipate a lot faster if I didn't have to see him, rather than being reminded everyday of the deceit and having to overhear whispering phone conversations that are sometimes with his 'gf'. That just makes me harbor more anger and resentment.

I thought about writing out what I would say to him like above poster suggested. Dont know if it would do it for me. I usually need face-to-face confrontation. Get it off my chest REGARDLESS of their response. I'll try writing it out anyway.

Wouldn't it be amusing if I just emailed him a link to these forums? Ha! Wonder how he would feel to see how others perceive his actions.
 

Sizzling Berry

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So, what counts as trustworthy and strong? And what's your role? Real questions to be answered by the real people.

But what if answering those questions hurts? :sad: Probably inevitable though.

Anyways, thescientist, when it comes to talking to the guy my question would be: would u like the guy just to hear you (see that u r pissed with him) or to really understand why you are angry? What would make u calmer?

The first one will give u at least a behavioural reaction - he will know that u r angry at him for a strange reason and around u he will be more concious - u can get a respect thingy - don't mess up with this gal.

The second one - as Wellspring has said - u may never get. As SciVo mentioned - the guy may just start protecting himself, defending himself in his mind and thus not allowing himself to understand ur point.

Yeah - but I can feel ur annoyance - the fact that u r attracted to somebody doesn't give this person a right to lie to u.
 

Uytuun

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Because I want some friggin closure, because I dont want to harbor these feelings anymore, because I work with the bastard, because he blatantly lied to my face about not being with anyone, because I'm sick and tired of the BS, because I don't think I've ever been deceived before in this manner.
I have plenty of reasons to care and a sense of justice that wont stay quiet.

Yeah...the whole not letting people get away with thinking they have deceived you thing. I would be the same. It's kind of justice and pride intermingled, I guess. And it's very difficult to let go of. I'd just tell him, at this point he can go fuck himself if he doesn't like it and he should be able to take the fallout of his own actions anyway (that's not to say he's "to blame" for the whole thing going awry...but the gf thing...ehh). It doesn't really matter if he denies it, as long as he knows we know...at least that's my thing. I suppose it's more about being true to our own values (honesty, (confrontation), respect...)...I would respect myself more for letting him know he cannot just get away with it. This does give closure. Time to think about your own feelings.
 

PeaceBaby

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The question was, "What are you going to do with the next ENFP you meet?"

If it's a male who's interested --> Not trust them. :dont:

Judging a whole MBTI group based on the behavior of one individual is irrational at best and dangerous at worst.

It's like saying you're never going to trust blondes again, or people who are 6 feet tall, or ... you get the idea.

And of course I think you should be aware in the future, but love involves an element of falling into it and therefore trust, so I would just caution you not to have your guard up to such an extent that you never let yourself try again.

Sending you a :hug: for comfort and appreciation of your pain and frustration.
 

INTP

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Because I want some friggin closure, because I dont want to harbor these feelings anymore, because I work with the bastard, because he blatantly lied to my face about not being with anyone, because I'm sick and tired of the BS, because I don't think I've ever been deceived before in this manner.
I have plenty of reasons to care and a sense of justice that wont stay quiet.

Well personally i think you should tell him that you know he was seeing someone else and tell him to drop the bullshit. Tell him all you know about his bullshitting, tell him how you feel about him and the situation and tell him that you want a closure to this.
 

Strawberrylover

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It's not worth it. Consider: what do you want? For your universal human psychological needs to be met. What needs? In this case, your needs for respect of worthiness, reciprocity of exclusivity and non-betrayal of trust. Can you get more of what you want by confronting him? No, he'll go from an evasive jerk to a defensive jerk. All you can do is empathize with your own needs -- explicitly verbally recognizing your right to have them met -- and then take actions that will help with that... such as avoiding the jerk (and maybe seeking a worthy guy, if you feel like it). But I really don't see how there's anything you can say to him that will help actually meet those needs, as opposed to in a fantasy where he's suddenly overcome by remorse and tearfully admits how wrong he was (not gonna happen).

:yes:

It doesn't sound like directly confronting him or being passive aggressive will ultimately get what you want, which is for him to confess his wrongdoings on his own, with no prodding from you. That's the ideal scenario, right? That someone you liked would live up to the good things you saw in them.

Since you're unlikely to get that, I suggest that you focus on yourself. What would make you happy? What would release this anger within you, that's harming you and not him? You feel mistreated by him. What would give you that respect back in your own life? More time with friends and family? Kicking ass at your job? Learning that foreign language you've been meaning to set aside time for? Focus on yourself. Everyone needs to learn how to make themselves happy. This might be a good opportunity for you to do that.

Also Scientist, I wanted to comment on this part of your OP.

So after all this time, and now that we're just back to amicable coworkers, I hear through the grapevine in the office that he does indeed have a gf, but it's unsure how serious the relationship is. Which means he had a gf the whole time he was going out with me and kissing me. She lives a few hours away, which I realize is why he always goes to that city once/twice a month. And this is why he never liked to call our dates "dates" claiming that word was TOO SERIOUS. Pieces finally coming together...

You probably didn't give all the details here, but I just wanted to raise the question of whether you might have jumped to conclusions on this. Just from what you wrote, I couldn't really make a judgment call on whether he did have a gf when he was going out with you. Maybe he wasn't that serious with her? Maybe they were on hiatus? Who knows?

Anyway, it's hard to do, but I think you should give him the benefit of the doubt and while you're at it, cut yourself some slack too.

Wish you well. :hug:
 
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