[ENFP] INTJ trying to understand an ENFP's actions (PART 2)

[PeaceBaby]

You have felt hurt and your reaction was to deliver it back in a variety of forms. But he seemed unaffected and now you are even angrier and freezing him out isn't giving you the satisfaction you want. SO you feel stuck with what to do next it seems.

If you truly have a desire to know the "truth", you will need to be open and non-confrontational and he will have to be open and secure enough to discuss it with you honestly. I admit it seems unlikely that such an atmosphere can be cultured based on the history you have outlined, and neither of you really know each other well enough for it to easily happen. I am not condoning his behavior at all, but you too have sent many mixed signals along the way rather than just talking to him frankly.

BUT, if you want to "clear the air" for your own sake, that's reason enough to approach him and try to talk. Own your own feelings and use lots of "I" statements ("I felt" or "I noticed" etc.) rather than "You did this" or "You were a jerk" ... you need to resist the urge to "hurt him back".

I think Amargith's explanations are a great place to settle if you decide not to talk to him.

But I think you really need to explore why you care so much at this point, why you are feeling the way you do. I suspect it's because you don't just want closure, you want a bit of revenge too ...

Good luck!

 

[Heart&Brain]

Yes, or you could call it treating him in a 'you're-not-special-anymore' way. I wanted it to be clear that I didn't give a rats tail about the fact that he was no longer interested and that I WAS NOT still hung up on him...whether it was true or not! ha

I have been reading your thread too, and I think you should forget him and concentrate on being honest to yourself. You DO care. Yes, you do, stop denying it. It has nothing to do with wanting closure or revenge or clearing the air. Not one single F will be fooled here, not him either. You like the guy and he does not like you back - at least not in the manner you need to be liked back in. And that hurts like hell. It's not shameful, though. It's positive and honorable to like somebody and it's legitimate to mourn when you can't have them. Nobody's to blame and no regrets are necessary. You will have to acknowledge your feelings to yourself, take the time for internal grief (without him having anything to do with it), and you will be fine to find somebody who likes you back in a way you will enjoy.

Not to care would have been reflected in your actions, including what you are thinking about and writing about and what your state of mind is when he is concerned. You care = you think and feel a lot about him, otherwise you would have forgotten all about it a long time ago. Being dishonest to yourself, trying to convince yourself (or us or him) that you did not wish he still liked you right back, or that you don't care about his feelings for you and that you are not feeling hurt and sad with the prospect that you like him more than he likes you: all these protective moves will keep you in dark with respect to your self and they will not help you to get over him.


Do you know the book about how to quit smoking that's called "Cigarettes are sublime"? The author realised he had to come clean about his attraction to smoking before he could overcome that attraction. For years he had unsuccesfully tried to quit by demonising cigarettes and kidding himself that he was not so stupid as to desire one. But not admitting that he found them sublime made him powerless to confront the strong urge. When he admitted his attraction and owned up to his grief about having to quit for health reasons, his reactions were no longer a mystery to himself and he could deal with the reality of what quitting something sublime meant to him. He succeeded this time.

And so will you!

I wish you all the best.

PS. His next book was about loosing weight and was called "Eat Fat!" - of course...

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ I agree with this, but the desire to have some sort of revenge is based on the fact that the OP is angry for still having some real feelings for this dweeb and him not seeming to care.

Especially for an INTJ, I think the desire to retaliate when emotionally injured is high - "You hurt me, well I'll show you, you'll twist in the wind for what you've done to me!" Which includes everything from the biting comments to freezing the other person out to ... well you get the idea.

Acknowledging those feelings and processing them will enable you to be free of the hold this guy has on you.

 

[BlueScreen]

one day at work, he asks me "Are we okay?". So I respond in the most non-chalant manner "YEAH, why? did you think i was angry at you?" And he says, "yeah, i was acting like a blah blah". Good, so he gets his closure in the most (in my opinion) pathetic and non-confrontational way.

Yes, or you could call it treating him in a 'you're-not-special-anymore' way. I wanted it to be clear that I didn't give a rats tail about the fact that he was no longer interested and that I WAS NOT still hung up on him...whether it was true or not! ha

Just to bring some personal logic into this. He brought up that he'd noticed you were annoyed with him, and gave you a chance to clarify. I'd say that's pretty decent of him. You did anything but that.

The interesting part was that you didn't do it to protect him, but to say you thought nothing of him. My question would be, if you inferred you thought nothing of him, and there was nothing between you, and pretty much showed you didn't care, why should he have any interest in you at all? Or think that you are a good choice to date? The non-tortuous, non-mixed up love that most people seek normally involves getting closer. Distancing is the opposite of that.

 

[thescientist]

Just to bring some personal logic into this. He brought up that he'd noticed you were annoyed with him, and gave you a chance to clarify. I'd say that's pretty decent of him. You did anything but that.

No, he didn't bring it up because he thought i was annoyed. His conscience finally felt bad about how he cowardly let the whole thing fade rather than confront me like an adult and let me know he was no longer interested.

The interesting part was that you didn't do it to protect him, but to say you thought nothing of him. My question would be, if you inferred you thought nothing of him, and there was nothing between you, and pretty much showed you didn't care, why should he have any interest in you at all? Or think that you are a good choice to date? The non-tortuous, non-mixed up love that most people seek normally involves getting closer. Distancing is the opposite of that.

Yes, perhaps I should have been honest and confronted him right then and there about how I felt. But lets not forget that he completely led me on and rather than letting me know he was no longer interested, continued to flirt/kiss me at work/use me as his ego boost, giving me the run around. So NO, I was NOT going to give him the pleasure of knowing that I still liked him and was hurt by his actions. Call it arrogance. I just decided I wasn't going to feed his ego any further.

I dont/didn't treat him bad, I treat him just like I would any other coworker and continue to do so.

 

[BlueScreen]

Sorry I inferred stuff. If you were reasonable with him, and cared, he sounds pretty dismissive. Find someone better, shouldn't waste feelings and thoughts on him. People shouldn't need to be instructed to have a conscience either, because that isn't a real conscience. p.s. I doubt he is a developed ENFP, because my friend did that to a girl and I grilled him enough about it and being decent that our friendship went. Like messing with motivation and people's spirit is at the top of my gripes. How did you type him again?

 

[thescientist]

How did you type him again?

No worries...the history was all in my long drawn-out first thread.

I asked him if he had ever taken MBTI, and he said he got ENFJ, but he's totally NOT J. Way too random and unpredictable. He fits the exact profile of ENFP.

He's a young and immature ENFP.

 

[BlueScreen]

No worries...the history was all in my long drawn-out first thread.

I fit the ENFP trait of not liking large amounts of detailed information. It's an annoying one.

 

[the state i am in]

at times injs will try to play the "youd better apologize to me" game. i do this too. i will not extravert my feelings- instead i will wait for someone to come fix them and all of the fuzzy problems they have (in my mind) caused. when i could communicate better, learn the ACTUAL information i need, and change the situation myself.

i think inj types just get hopeful and extra disappointed when something doesn't work out bc they dont' have enuf thru traffic. nfps can juggle better, it doesn't feel as inauthentic bc, at the end of the day, they can focus on weighing out their feelings and allowing for more complexly shaded layers. whereas nj types have to focus more on CONDUCT, on extraverted judgment. but that doesn't make it more right, it makes it more right for us.

but for this type of relationship to work both parties have to appreciate the differences in the way the other works in a much much better way. he obviously doesn't know what he wants, and he probably doesn't even think he did anything wrong, exploring a new connection and seeing how it pans out. demanding the focus and attention of an extraverted p type to match what you bring as a super concentrated, focused ij type doesn't really make sense. that's not what they do for themselves or for you or for the relationship. it's why many introverts go with other introverts, ultimately they don't ever embrace that extra sphere of uncertainty and ep flexibility when they could commit to someone who understands with a more hometown same city kind of feel/way of going about things.

in my current situation i've found that dating an intj and having lots of enp friends seems to be the best way to bring the best out in me. enps would make me crazy, bc they'd magnify my insecurities a billiionfold. and that's a lot to take.

as it sounds to me, the only thing that can improve your understanding of this situation is more experience and more communication. i don't think you've really zeroed in on actual connections that tell a compelling or accurate story. there's a sense of protecting yourself from Fi. the only recommendation is to use Te to make the situation better, make yourself gain something productive from the experience, set an objective, etc. and use the opportunity to get a little more in-touch with Fi. i know every time i have an experience that messes with me and i start shutting down, a little tertiary deep tissue work (Ti for me) does amazing things for me, gets me back on track, in-touch with my personal values, what is important to me, who i am and where i am going, etc. a learning experience, a chance for self-improvement.

 

[thescientist]

For those of you that do agree with confronting/approaching him about it, what would you say? Or how would you even start? Just curious...

 

[Kalach]

Generally speaking, if one--anyone, not just in this case--wants to continue the relationship, you confront with an open-handed "here's where I'm at, where are you at?" If one doesn't want to continue the relation but has to because of, say, working *closely* together, you confront with a view to laying down ground rules. If, on the other hand, the relationship is over, you get out, get clear, remove yourself from the toxic cloud that dying feeling leaves behind.

You're angry, and this is a little bit were you're screwed, because you're almost never going to beat an ENFP at wriggling around an issue. They just do have the strength indeed the interest for endlessly bullshitting, skipping around an issue and trying to move it their way. And right when you're about to skewer them, they'll just skip off and play with someone else.

Perhaps the thing to observe is, a lot of it is an act. We actually do destabilise them as much as they destablise us. But their sheilds are happy and smiley where ours are terse and hard, so from the outside it looks like they get away with it while we sit around being Mister Frowny Pants.

Thus, you admit you're still hot for him, even if it's just angry hot, and be disappointed at how he can't internalise the opportunity to try out something deeper than he's used to, or you say fuckit and say goodbye.


It still always takes two people working together to make something work, and they both have to choose. This guy spoiled his choice. I don't know if that's something you can confront someone about. I figure you are allowed to say things like, "Meh, don't talk to me, you made me feel bad and I don't want to know anymore" but not only is that a blame statement, it's not good confrontation material either.



Oh, the irony of INTJs giving INTJs relationship advice, but it's either that or have to listen to the Fs knowing better than we do.

 

[SciVo]

Oh, the irony of INTJs giving INTJs relationship advice, but it's either that or have to listen to the Fs knowing better than we do.

Well, sorry, but damn! I mean, seriously, you know?

 

[Kalach]

Oh, I do know.

But there's still the fact that extraverted thinking is a bigger part of an INTJ. Even if we do get around to working out some kind of feeling stability, we still want to have that extra component, the bit where one knows what to do about the feeling. It doesn't feel right to simply emote.

 

[Lethe]

Oh, the irony of INTJs giving INTJs relationship advice.

To the outsider, it's ultimate exemplar of the blind leading the blind.

For those of you that do agree with confronting/approaching him about it, what would you say? Or how would you even start? Just curious...

At this point, you have to clarify your objective 100%. So far it sounds like you're desperate to put this entire ordeal behind you. Good enough? Now we have a goal.

The next part is acknowledging your challenges, which are probably: 1.) Anger; 2.) Remaining attraction the ENFP; 3.) Possible awkwardness at work; 4.) Loss of face; 5.) Retribution; 6.) Wanting the ENFP to admit his mistakes; 7.) Etc.

Then analyze and gather the resources available to handle these challenges. Looking at these factors and what you've written, something may have to be solved on your own. I sincerely doubt that your ENFP would readily admit his lesser brilliant choices without a struggle -- he's just as stuck in his world of thoughts as you are in yours. In retrospect, it will be wise to keep back-up plans to quench your anger/retribution needs in a more mutually satisfactory way.

No, he didn't bring it up because he thought i was annoyed. His conscience finally felt bad about how he cowardly let the whole thing fade rather than confront me like an adult and let me know he was no longer interested.

You can't teach an old dog new tricks, yet you can perhaps guide him into performing the old tricks incredibly well. How about helping him out with his GGS? Use your creativity to think of more solutions. Criticize them only after you've conjured a handful.

Lastly, remember that:

1.) Square pegs do not fit into round holes. This is includes forcing someone to do something against their will. (Trust me, I've been there. You'll run into a dead-end and it might cause irreparable damage.)

2.) You cannot stop the waves, but you can learn to surf. Discover what you can control: yourself and your decisions.

3.) Focus more on managing your reactions and relying less on how other people will respond. Human nature can be rather unpredictable and chaotic. The opportunities will unveil themselves. Be patient and persistent.

4.) If something doesn't work, keep your passion while changing your tactics. Don't keep retrying those futile methods. They're not working for a reason.

Generally speaking, if one--anyone, not just in this case--wants to continue the relationship, you confront with an open-handed "here's where I'm at, where are you at?"

Bingo.

Tell him how you feel about his actions and where you are without blaming him at all costs, as his fickle nature will only exacerbate. You might even say he's not required to respond to your concerns, but you would like for him to at least lend an open ear. Make your grievances sound fixable, in addition to clarifying that you are open to his side of the issue. He currently has a highly defensive barricade and you must take them down gently if you want to reach him. Fickleness is his way of protecting himself like emotional distancing is your personal shield. If neither individuals move past their defenses, then progress won't be made. That, I can guarantee.

 

[Litvyak]

Side note: I've come to realize that an ENFP's actions are nearly impossible to predict or understand, since most of the time they don't know what they're going to do in the next 10 seconds.

Now I'm convinced that 'F vs. T' only means 'gut feelings take priority over logic vs. logic takes priority over gut feelings' in decision making, there is not more of a correlation between F and sensitivity than T and the abovementioned quality.

It seems EFP's particularly like to fuck around and toy with people. They flirt with others, and when it seems the victims have taken an interest in them, they throw them out like shit and move along. Is that fun OR WHAT?

Am I generalizing here? Yes. Am I being irrational? A little, I guess. Do I care? Not for one second.

 

[Uytuun]

You could just blow up into his face and unleash your emotions...yes, maybe it'll devolve into a shouting match, but sometimes these things are good/the only way to clear the air. Maybe if you are both enraged enough (a.k.a. show each other your weak emotional belly), you'll get out what's inside. ENFPs can be superdifficult to get to really open up. You are both Fi-ers after all. Maybe he'll be relieved at seeing some form of emotion? And at least you'll have gotten it out of your system.

Coating really strong emotions with Te doesn't work for me...very unsatisfying.

 

[BlueScreen]

Side note: I've come to realize that an ENFP's actions are nearly impossible to predict or understand, since most of the time they don't know what they're going to do in the next 10 seconds.

We're NPs, we don't exactly dive in blindly without considering everything. But yeh, it is true. I rarely work premeditated, just know the possibilities, try to understand the situation, and trust myself to adapt in the moment. I don't know what I'm going to do in the next 10 seconds, but I know the possibilities of what either of us might do quite well.

You could just blow up into his face and unleash your emotions...yes, maybe it'll devolve into a shouting match, but sometimes these things are good/the only way to clear the air. Maybe if you are both enraged enough (a.k.a. show each other your weak emotional belly), you'll get out what's inside. ENFPs can be superdifficult to get to really open up. You are both Fi-ers after all. Maybe he'll be relieved at seeing some form of emotion? And at least you'll have gotten it out of your system.

Unless ENFPs are really comfortable they won't open up. They can be very open to a point, but anything close to their hearts, that really matters, normally stays well protected. I notice with FPs I get to the point of being completely open very quickly, with some other types I may never get there. INTJs seem to be one that I do get there with though.

Tell him how you feel about his actions and where you are without blaming him at all costs, as his fickle nature will only exacerbate. You might even say he's not required to respond to your concerns, but you would like for him to at least lend an open ear. Make your grievances sound fixable, in addition to clarifying that you are open to his side of the issue. He currently has a highly defensive barricade and you must take them down gently if you want to reach him. Fickleness is his way of protecting himself like emotional distancing is your personal shield. If neither individuals move past their defenses, then progress won't be made. That, I can guarantee.

Yep, the best approach for an ENFP, or any P, is to hit them with where you are at, and perceptions rather than judgments. If he sees he's messed you round, he will blame himself anyway. It saves you some work and a conflict.

 

[Moiety]

Side note: I've come to realize that an ENFP's actions are nearly impossible to predict or understand, since most of the time they don't know what they're going to do in the next 10 seconds.

Now I'm convinced that 'F vs. T' only means 'gut feelings take priority over logic vs. logic takes priority over gut feelings' in decision making, there is not more of a correlation between F and sensitivity than T and the abovementioned quality.

It seems EFP's particularly like to fuck around and toy with people. They flirt with others, and when it seems the victims have taken an interest in them, they throw them out like shit and move along. Is that fun OR WHAT?

Am I generalizing here? Yes. Am I being irrational? A little, I guess. Do I care? Not for one second.

Neither do the ENFPs. We are too busy fucking around and toying with other people.

 

[Uytuun]

Unless ENFPs are really comfortable they won't open up. They can be very open to a point, but anything close to their hearts, that really matters, normally stays well protected. I notice with FPs I get to the point of being completely open very quickly, with some other types I may never get there. INTJs seem to be one that I do get there with though.

You mean there won't be any angry shouting+passionate make-up sex?

I was about to buy the rights to this story, dammit.

 

[BlueScreen]

You mean there won't be any angry shouting+passionate make-up sex?

I was about to buy the rights to this story, dammit.

Actually, I think "make up sex?" as a question would go down quite well with an ENFP male .