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  1. #21
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    That doesn't sound like something an executive would say! Say it in positive terms! Say it with GUSTO



    I'm totally wrecking your thread, aren't I @Orobas
    Nah, hahaha.

    I started a new job at a small software company where I am surrounded by other ENFPs, the CEO, CFO (who surfs!), the VP of R&D and all of her directors...my PM team is a bunch of ENFPs but our boss is an ESTJ. We dig her!

    I do have to say I have seen some REALLY negative things ENFP leaders can do, that arent related to being organized-

    1. The inability to be direct-out of our fear of confrontation, we can emotionally maul and damage others by not letting our reportees know there is an issue. I see this in the so/sx ENFPs....
    2. Passive agression/shunning if we find the other person moral incomprehensible-like an ESTP for instance
    3. A lack of resepct for the needs of TPs that work for us-this can be very tricky to navigate...but again we can hurt others if we are not wary.

  2. #22
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Nah, hahaha.

    I started a new job at a small software company where I am surrounded by other ENFPs, the CEO, CFO (who surfs!), the VP of R&D and all of her directors...my PM team is a bunch of ENFPs but our boss is an ESTJ. We dig her!

    I do have to say I have seen some REALLY negative things ENFP leaders can do, that arent related to being organized-

    1. The inability to be direct-out of our fear of confrontation, we can emotionally maul and damage others by not letting our reportees know there is an issue. I see this in the so/sx ENFPs....
    2. Passive agression/shunning if we find the other person moral incomprehensible-like an ESTP for instance
    3. A lack of resepct for the needs of TPs that work for us-this can be very tricky to navigate...but again we can hurt others if we are not wary.
    I would be more guilty of these in regular life than at work. at work I turn into a little TJ and don't give a damn about other people's morals. if I was managing a psychopath and he was a productive, low maintenance employee, more power to him. you had me pegged outside of work though with the ESTP part. most of the ESTPs I meet make me think "damn, that dude is evil". granted, most of the ESTPs I've met had borderline abusive tendencies, so obviously I can't judge the type as a whole based on that. FJs and NTJs seem to have a similar feud going on
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  3. #23
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    OK, now I've gotta add my 10 cents...

    I think ENFPs can be very good leaders, but it all depends on whether or not they have mastery over their use of Fi and Te. This only comes with maturity and life experience, I think. Thus, we see a dichotomy:

    • ENFPs in leadership positions without mature use of Fi and Te = Disaster. Terrible follow through and all the other ENFP leadership faults people have described.
    • ENFPs in leadership position with mature use of Fi and Te = Strong leader.


    I've been in leadership positions several times and judge myself a competent leader. My strengths are my ability to logically organize things and figure out the most logical / efficient route from point a to point b. (Voila Te.) My Fi also means that I work very hard to lead in a way that is consistent with my Fi values. I really care about the people who report to me and want to see them succeed. I tend to act more like a coach than a boss. And, in general have received high marks from my direct reports.

    So fooey to those who say that ENFPs can't lead. That's a bunch of hogwash. They can and do lead if they can apply their Fi and Te to maximum advantage.

    BTW, my weaknesses as a leader are pretty close to a lot of things @Orobas has observed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I do have to say I have seen some REALLY negative things ENFP leaders can do, that arent related to being organized-

    1. The inability to be direct-out of our fear of confrontation, we can emotionally maul and damage others by not letting our reportees know there is an issue. I see this in the so/sx ENFPs....
    2. Passive agression/shunning if we find the other person moral incomprehensible-like an ESTP for instance
    3. A lack of resepct for the needs of TPs that work for us-this can be very tricky to navigate...but again we can hurt others if we are not wary.
    I didn't think about until she pointed it out, but I have a very hard time... very, very hard time... connecting with ESTPs in my employ. (ISTPs I have no problem with for some reason.) ESTPs seem to be speaking a foreign language to me and it's easy for me to completely discount them. I wind up either patronizing them or passive aggressively ignoring them.

    I'd say my biggest weakness is my avoidance of confrontation. I am super good at avoiding confrontation, much to my own chagrin. Sometimes, as a boss, you just need to go into "Dick Mode" and tell the other person exactly what's wrong with no hedging or molly coddling. Boy is that hard for me to do.... I tend to put it off until I get emotionally worked up about the problem (i.e., my Fi gets offended). This is not a good combination, and is a recipe for a good old-fashioned ENFP Te Bitchslap... which is usually not a productive move in the workplace.

    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  4. #24
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    OK, now I've gotta add my 10 cents...

    I think ENFPs can be very good leaders, but it all depends on whether or not they have mastery over their use of Fi and Te. This only comes with maturity and life experience, I think. Thus, we see a dichotomy:

    • ENFPs in leadership positions without mature use of Fi and Te = Disaster. Terrible follow through and all the other ENFP leadership faults people have described.
    • ENFPs in leadership position with mature use of Fi and Te = Strong leader.


    I've been in leadership positions several times and judge myself a competent leader. My strengths are my ability to logically organize things and figure out the most logical / efficient route from point a to point b. (Voila Te.) My Fi also means that I work very hard to lead in a way that is consistent with my Fi values. I really care about the people who report to me and want to see them succeed. I tend to act more like a coach than a boss. And, in general have received high marks from my direct reports.

    So fooey to those who say that ENFPs can't lead. That's a bunch of hogwash. They can and do lead if they can apply their Fi and Te to maximum advantage.

    BTW, my weaknesses as a leader are pretty close to a lot of things @Orobas has observed.



    I didn't think about until she pointed it out, but I have a very hard time... very, very hard time... connecting with ESTPs in my employ. (ISTPs I have no problem with for some reason.) ESTPs seem to be speaking a foreign language to me and it's easy for me to completely discount them. I wind up either patronizing them or passive aggressively ignoring them.

    I'd say my biggest weakness is my avoidance of confrontation. I am super good at avoiding confrontation, much to my own chagrin. Sometimes, as a boss, you just need to go into "Dick Mode" and tell the other person exactly what's wrong with no hedging or molly coddling. Boy is that hard for me to do.... I tend to put it off until I get emotionally worked up about the problem (i.e., my Fi gets offended). This is not a good combination, and is a recipe for a good old-fashioned ENFP Te Bitchslap... which is usually not a productive move in the workplace.

    of all the ENFPs on this forum, you are probably the most like me
    with the exception of the confrontation part. my natural tendency is more nip it in the bud so to speak. the things I tend to avoid tend to be more work related. being an ENFP 7 I REALLY just don't want to work sometimes and it's a struggle to stay productive
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  5. #25
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Perhaps the lesson we most need to learn is that you can be direct without, simultaneously, being a dick? LOL

  6. #26
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Perhaps the lesson we most need to learn is that you can be direct without, simultaneously, being a dick? LOL
    I'm not an office worker or manager, so perhaps it's different, but one would think that if it was necessary to be a dick to get a person to do something that that person shouldn't have been hired in the first place
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  7. #27
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Befor having children i worked as a restaurant manager...after years of fun waitressing.
    I was completely unable to be balanced in the role and hated it.
    I either let people walk all over me with my niceness or went in the opposite direction and barked orders.
    I had issues with telling people what do if they didnt do it when asked nicely...hence she devil appearance.
    I think it would be different now i have matured but back then i much preferred being one of the waiting staff and being on the side of the underdogs.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  8. #28
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I'm not an office worker or manager, so perhaps it's different, but one would think that if it was necessary to be a dick to get a person to do something that that person shouldn't have been hired in the first place
    But each person is motivated by different things and has different needs. Some need very direct feedback and seem need very subtle gently delivered feedback. The originator of the communication bears the burden for delivering the correct message if they want to be heard.

    Using the ESTP example-they bring awesome things to the table, but if we misread or project upon them, then dismiss them based upon a value stance, we have discarded a great deal of valuable info that could help a team progress.

    I think my point, is that it becomes very important to be able to segregate emo response from direct delivery of a message. If they only time we are direct is when we are extremely frustrated, we missed the mark by about ten miles back. Also, by then our message is obscured by our frustration and will have an emo-taint, as well as being values biased and will be poorly received.

    I have found the best way to "be Te", is not to stick with the baby ESTJ and my firm Si stance...

    Instead I try and think ENTJ. It is a weird trick and not always possible....but I put the Te thoughts to the front of my mind and then try and release the Si and just let go of preconcieved notions of how things should be. It is delightfully liberating!!! LOL. But it total cuts the values tie and lets me more objectively evaluate the potential Te plan.

    IfI can do this Te things that seemed VERY important are reduced to being things that should be considered, but not acted on in the moment, or even become things that should be let slide as part of some fun yet serious game...Almost like I let them win the battle while I focus on the war??

    Other weird ENFP-isms in management
    1. We feel a need to know EVERYTHING at a high level to build ourselves a generalized Si context. This means we will keep others around us running to supply a steady stream of "updates" while not allowing them to do real work.

    2. We also seriously piss of the TPs by "being always right". We know an answer, then get proven wrong, then we know an answer again...the TP says "fuck, you knew it for certain ten minutes ago and were wrong, but know you think for certain you are right again???" NeTe flips on a dime very easily and is willing to be 80% correct-but this can screw you over of you manage TPs. In a management position, this can be messy...

    3. We expect the TPs to adopt our mode of caring for our coworkers while ignoring the modes in which they care for their coworkers. Thus we simulatneously crticize them, but then plow through their need for social structure with our "Te hammer of JUSTICE!!!!"

    I suspect that with a bit of awareness, these can easily be avoided, but you have to know there is a problem, before you can solve it.

  9. #29
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    But each person is motivated by different things and has different needs. Some need very direct feedback and seem need very subtle gently delivered feedback. The originator of the communication bears the burden for delivering the correct message if they want to be heard.

    Using the ESTP example-they bring awesome things to the table, but if we misread or project upon them, then dismiss them based upon a value stance, we have discarded a great deal of valuable info that could help a team progress.

    I think my point, is that it becomes very important to be able to segregate emo response from direct delivery of a message. If they only time we are direct is when we are extremely frustrated, we missed the mark by about ten miles back. Also, by then our message is obscured by our frustration and will have an emo-taint, as well as being values biased and will be poorly received.

    I have found the best way to "be Te", is not to stick with the baby ESTJ and my firm Si stance...

    Instead I try and think ENTJ. It is a weird trick and not always possible....but I put the Te thoughts to the front of my mind and then try and release the Si and just let go of preconcieved notions of how things should be. It is delightfully liberating!!! LOL. But it total cuts the values tie and lets me more objectively evaluate the potential Te plan.

    IfI can do this Te things that seemed VERY important are reduced to being things that should be considered, but not acted on in the moment, or even become things that should be let slide as part of some fun yet serious game...Almost like I let them win the battle while I focus on the war??

    Other weird ENFP-isms in management
    1. We feel a need to know EVERYTHING at a high level to build ourselves a generalized Si context. This means we will keep others around us running to supply a steady stream of "updates" while not allowing them to do real work.

    2. We also seriously piss of the TPs by "being always right". We know an answer, then get proven wrong, then we know an answer again...the TP says "fuck, you knew it for certain ten minutes ago and were wrong, but know you think for certain you are right again???" NeTe flips on a dime very easily and is willing to be 80% correct-but this can screw you over of you manage TPs. In a management position, this can be messy...

    3. We expect the TPs to adopt our mode of caring for our coworkers while ignoring the modes in which they care for their coworkers. Thus we simulatneously crticize them, but then plow through their need for social structure with our "Te hammer of JUSTICE!!!!"

    I suspect that with a bit of awareness, these can easily be avoided, but you have to know there is a problem, before you can solve it.
    I tend to go more assertive INTJ than ENTJ, but thinking NTJ seems to work better for ENFPs than thinking STJ
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  10. #30
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Perhaps the lesson we most need to learn is that you can be direct without, simultaneously, being a dick? LOL
    Yeah. I see what you mean. Ha ha!
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

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