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[MBTI General] The Care and Keeping of Your INFX

heart

heart on fire
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May 19, 2007
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At INFPgc, there was a thread about disliking hugs, especially in public (really! :eek:) . I'd venture to say most of us like to receive them more than we'll let on though. I've gotten more huggy with age and welcome it now, but I used to be resistant...

I like to hug very much but I only like to hug a select number of people.

Hugs can be a super aggressive thing too. I hate when I have to hug relatives who have been hateful to me. I don't even understand why they want it, unless it is some kind of power thing.
 

Halla74

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OH, my yes Halla - very very normal!!!
Congrats on making it this far!!

Something similar with my ENTJ... damn, I miss him...

Reminds me of the boyfriend I had who let me go because I made him think too much. So yeah, congrats on getting so far!

:worthy: Thank you BOTH! *Cowers on floor fighting off learned helplessness* :rofl1:

WOW! It's some heavy shit for a guy like me to ponder, but my INFJ NEEDS that kind of dialog or else things ARE NOT OK.

I cannot explain how alien of a concept that is to an extroverted sensor thinker perceiver. If an organism is not screaming and splurting out blood and having bones sticking out of its appendages then it's OK right????

WRONG!!!


We're both giving it the old college try though becasue the love is there for sure, we just speak different dialects of Martian and Venetian. :D
 

WoodsWoman

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I had to learn my ENTJ needed debate and argument!! ----He learned to get that need met elsewhere at least some of the time. Never thought I'm miss that soap box!!
 

entropie

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And if you all fail with your friends, remember girls I am always there for you ! (And yes halla you can come too) :D
 

sonata

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I just realised that I may have been unclear in my original post, so here's a bit of clarity:
"The reasons you have for not calling are completely understandable--but did she know about these reasons? If she didn't, then it may seem to her as if you flagrantly went against what she specifically asked you to do--hence the hurt feelings."

So my basic point was to ask whether you explained why you texted instead of calling.

I did, well, I tried, but I'm not sure if she heard/comprehended any of it through all the yelling.

Update:
So I told her today that I really don't want to leave with us being on bad terms. (I am moving out in nine days, across the Atlantic).

She looks at me and tells me "We are always on good terms."

And I'm thinking, "by good terms, I sort of meant the kind of terms where you're not telling me that I'm egocentric and don't give a damn about anyone besides myself".
 

Coeur

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Not sure about INFPs, but I know INFJs are all about non-verbals, so maybe translating a few of our non-verbals would help?

NERVOUS GLANCES

What It Means - If an INFJ starts casting nervous glances in any direction, it usually means there's something more important to him at the moment than whatever discussion you're intent on engaging him in. As such, it should come as a sign that you've been talking way too long about way too little; you're either taking too long to get to the point or spending too much time dwelling on it.

Good idea.
^I'd relate that to INFPs too, or at least to me personally.

All of the general body language signals are good signs: active listening, eye contact, facing you, etc. I'm bad at making myself look interested.

One thing I'd like to say is that we're very good at picking up on signs. Nonetheless, we may not respond to them because we want you to make the first move. So, if you give every sign that you want to kiss me, for instance, and I don't pull away, then go for it. By not rejecting those signs, I am indirectly giving you permission.

I like to hug very much but I only like to hug a select number of people.

Hugs can be a super aggressive thing too. I hate when I have to hug relatives who have been hateful to me. I don't even understand why they want it, unless it is some kind of power thing.

Hugs should be mutually enjoyed. I'll hug people as a polite greeting, but no "real" hugs except for those I am close to.

Nothing is inherently wrong with taking things personally; in fact, many things should be taken very personally. It's all context-dependent.

The problem is that NFPs especially (and to a lesser extent NFJs and sometimes SFs) don't know where to draw the line between personal and impersonal. The mature ones recognize when their natural feeling response isn't appropriate and are able to separate themselves from the situation and make a more objective decision--this is very important in many situations.

I'm not going to reconsider shit in terms of expressing my brilliant opinion--maybe you should buy shampoo with "no more tears" so we can start working with you like reasonable adults instead of high functioning children who can't understand why objective criticism is sometimes necessary. Of course it's possible to be too insensitive and many people (usually Ts) are; again it's a balance, but I really can't accept the idea that feelings should always govern 100% of interactions and that if I hurt anyone's feelings I'm automatically wrong. The fact is, some people are too sensitive, and that's life.

Granted, strong Ts often have the opposite problem in terms of never knowing when things should be approached from a personal standpoint, but for the love of God, there is a fucking line--I'm really sorry here, but I'm not going to bend over backwards and walk on eggshells all the time because some people are too childish to handle honesty.

I agree with this fully. There needs to be balance.

Some people ARE too sensitive. I'm saying this as a highly sensitive person myself. It is almost impossible to hurt people who are EXTREMELY sensitive, because no matter how nice or tactful or gentle you are, they will take personal angle in it. It is harmful to both the sensitive person [poor things make mountains out of every molehill] as well as to the relationship.

Example: I am direct, but extremely gentle. Not only do I remove any percievable meanness from an unfavorable statement, but I pad it with sugar all around. My oversensitive boyfriend would, nonetheless, get mad and cry. Not my fault. If you need to walk on eggshells, it DOES hurt the relationship due to poor communication.
 

Halla74

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I had to learn my ENTJ needed debate and argument!! ----He learned to get that need met elsewhere at least some of the time. Never thought I'm miss that soap box!!

I love a good argument more than a bottle of fine wine, but I won't strike one up with my lovey-dovey to fancy that urge of mine, that's rude, and totally unproductive. I chew who needs chewing out when they need chewing out, the minute they fuck up. I don't let my co-workers piss me off and then come home and be an ass to my wife or my pets. I don't belive doing as such is the work of a wise man. Sorry you had to live through that. :(

And if you all fail with your friends, remember girls I am always there for you ! (And yes halla you can come too) :D

Oh my, thank you so much Entropie. Fortunately, I was built without having the option to fail, so I will stand alongside you and support hose that can. Let us drink to their recovery. :D

...All of the general body language signals are good signs: active listening, eye contact, facing you, etc. I'm bad at making myself look interested.

One thing I'd like to say is that we're very good at picking up on signs.

This is not directed at you Coeur, but you said it most recently. I have heard from many XNFX types that they are good at "picking up on signs" or have "good intuition" and must staste from my own observations that this is folly in many cases. Many sensors THINK they know what is going on around them but they are dead wrong because their perception is jaded by prior experience/lack thereof. Idyllics can suffer from the same errors, in the they FEEL they know what is going on but they are reading into things with the prejudice of prior experience, fear, etc. Each situation must be judged case by case. No person of any type is given a hallpass to make great predictions about any and all things, from what I have seen anyway. Not soapboxing, just a big extrapolation from little old me... :cheese: :hug:
 

entropie

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Oh my, thank you so much Entropie. Fortunately, I was built without having the option to fail, so I will stand alongside you and support hose that can. Let us drink to their recovery. :D

Alrite. The stage is yours :)
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

failure to thrive
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Oh my, thank you so much Entropie. I will stand alongside you and support hose that can. Let us drink to their recovery. :D

i think entropie would prefer fishnets. am i right? :cheese:
 

WoodsWoman

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Eh, Halla, he was good about it - and he was, from what I can see, a very typical ENTJ: He loved to talk politics. The saving grace was that we both 'sang from the same sheet of music' so to speak. Even so he'd spout off about things that came up in the news on a regular basis.

The other place he'd spout was on the road about other drivers - his driving skills were excellent and standards very high. He'd spout and my blood pressure would go up: I'd be angry at them for irritating him (I'd react the same way when he'd mouth off about someone at work, too). He'd insist he was just spouting - it didn't get under his skin the way it did mine... oh, well...

He never took his irritations out inappropriately - his immense personal integrity kept that from being any sort of problem.
 

Halla74

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Eh, Halla, he was good about it - and he was, from what I can see, a very typical ENTJ: He loved to talk politics. The saving grace was that we both 'sang from the same sheet of music' so to speak. Even so he'd spout off about things that came up in the news on a regular basis.

The other place he'd spout was on the road about other drivers - his driving skills were excellent and standards very high. He'd spout and my blood pressure would go up: I'd be angry at them for irritating him (I'd react the same way when he'd mouth off about someone at work, too). He'd insist he was just spouting - it didn't get under his skin the way it did mine... oh, well...

He never took his irritations out inappropriately - his immense personal integrity kept that from being any sort of problem.

OK, that's good to know, I mis-read your ex's innate need to argue asd being more similar to other (less agreeable E_TJ) folks I know IRL. Bottom line for me is that I argue when needed, do it fairly, and if I am sure of my point of view will persist until victorious. If I am not 100% sure then I don't argue, I will debate, as that is an opportunity for learning, and not a needless conflict. I hope that makes sense to someone other than ESTP me... :whistling:

i think entropie would prefer fishnets. am i right? :cheese:

:ROFL1: Aphrodite-Gone-Awry, you, and only you are able to pick out the one sentence I write that a missing "T" totally and completely derails my comment and in the same stroke reveals Mr. Entropie's female hosiery fetishes. I applaud your humor and on-the-fly editing skills. :worthy: :cheers:

Everything's subjective...

In more seriousness, my 'natural response' is always appropriate - to me. Just like your natural response is appropriate - to you.

Where 'context appropriate' comes in is what do you do after your natural response kick in...


Feelings don't have to be invalidated or excused, they exist side by side with all the other intellectual reasoning and decision making we do. And are often part of that process....

I wouldn't articulate it as 'separating themselves from the situation' but just being able to look at the situation more objectively. Ne actually does help with that, you know...

Because we're always a part of our own personal situations. ;)

I applaud the above excerpts from your response. They remind me of much good wisdom in Dr. David burns "Feeling Good Handbook." It is the first text I was encouraged to read by my wife that had communication tips/techniques/bullet point summarized strategy that was (a) comprehensible, (b) useful, and (c) coupled with advice to al.low it to be deployed in real world contexts.

Although a creature that prides himself on being open minded and fair, it is only as of late that I have recognized with forethought that many conversations that human beings have (especially spouses) are not zero sum games where there must be one winner and one loser. Such conversations are often "feelings based" and it is extrememly difficult for a strong thinker type (ala ESTP me) to wind up in one of these conversations and not arm themselves and take the offensive. It is COMPLETELY alien to us. I've tried to get better at this, but by my own admission there are times when I look my wife in the face and say "I am angry right now and cannot continue this conversation" and she is happy with me for it because I have said as such instead of storming off and not speaking to her for 3 days while I go off in the backyard and build a shed. :shocking: At the same time her attempts at telling me what she WANTS or NEEDS from me feel like bloodletting and I know she is trying her damnedest so I hang in as long as I can until blood emits from my tympanic membranes. This is serious shit for those of us who do not have a knack for it naturally and are trying to develop such siad skills for the sake of the greater good (aka staying married!). It is so hard for me not to go tactical at times, and just as hard for her to speak her mind in ways that make sense to me. What a fucking nightmare it can be, thank you MBTI gods! Assholes! :doh:
 

sciski

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Firstly, Halla74, may I salute you. :)



2) I'm certain that I know how you're feeling far more accurately than you do, so don't argue with me.

Isn't this an example of poor skills (possibly over-arrogance) in Perceiving, not poor skills in Judging?
 

Scott N Denver

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To quote the Toby Keith song title [he was in Denver on Friday btw], "I wanna talk about me", and by "me" I mean "INF's and our care and upkeep"
 

Scott N Denver

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quoting myself since it belongs in this thread:

Ye, original topic. BTW, how is your and OA's bookwork coming along? Inquiring minds [who spend money on MBTI books!!!] want to know.

BTW, while not nearly as technical as many other MBTI books, I strongly recommend Renee Barron's What Type Am I?
 

Fidelia

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I think that's all I got right there. Unless, what is it that you want to know? Difference between the two types? How to make up after a fight with one of the types? How to surprise them or make them happy? What to do in different scenarios? Where to find one? How to win them over?
 

Lethe

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What To Do

- Say it. State your point, give us the rundown, and let us figure out the rest. Padding your point to soften the blow reads as you thinking we're too delicate to process the raw data. If you need an example, ask us for a brutally honest, off-the-record opinion about your fat ass or your butt-ugly Donald Duck necktie.

- Say it once. If you keep revisiting a point once it's been made, it shows us you think we have the attention span of a goldfish with ADD swimming in Red Bull laced with ecstasy. You'll get your goldfish from the pet store and your point made before the Jurassic-period caveman figures out how that strange little orange fish appeared in mid-air...and why everything's been frozen in time and 40 shades of neon since he ate it.

These two guidelines would apply for any hassle-free discussion with me, even though I am not an INFJ. Alas, I coincidentally happen to have an ISFJ mother who instinctively relies on all the aforementioned petpeeves to communicate her points. One can guess how strenuous and emotionally taxing our interactions become.

=======================================

[...] after 15 years I am only now learning to "talk" with my INFJ. Someone please tell me that's normal... :cheese:

I'm rowing in the same boat, and I have made about a (literal) 5% progress on understanding the ISFJ dialect. ;) Quitting isn't my style, so I am still here a billion heated arguments later trying to figure out a workable solution for a smooth INTJ-ISFJ translation.

We also have a (semi)treaty:

1. When I have limited patience, we won't speak to each other for the whole day. (Results: 10/10)
+ My benefit: Time and clear space to sort out messy thoughts. Can re-organize/execute responsibilities sans the nagging chorus.
+ Her benefit: Could avoid listening to the biting criticisms or any other form of 'disrespect'.
+ Mutual benefit: Saves energy for other activities.
- Drawbacks (-0): None.

2. If she wants me to do something a.s.a.p, she would limit the number of instructional repetitions and procedural nit-picks. Then declare an official deadline. (Results: 7/10)
+ Benefits: Same as above.
- Drawbacks (-3): She has trouble sticking to the deadlines, because she feels guilty about allowing the consequences to teach me a lesson. (However, this is the best way for me to learn and remember anything. I generally let the consequences shape the person, while my mom will nag -- out of love -- the person from a poor decision.) So the ISFJ mother often tries to extend them, and to her dismay, I would often forget about her requests since they loose their importance by having a flexible deadline. They always seem less desirable compared to the more time-sensitive tasks. As an individual who performs better under a firm structure that has room for navigational creativity, I am unresponsive to her strict step-by-step methods and vague descriptions of the expected results. The very source of conflict arrives from our working and directing preferences. I know she won't be changing her ways, so I will need to accommodate myself with an imaginary set of deadlines and consequences. It's challenging to do so because the returns aren't as enjoyable as the real ones.

(*I'm going to tie this into my experiences with the INFJ tomorrow.)

=======================================

Your diction is anything but constructive.

Perhaps it is not, though his intention to be constructive is largely indisputable. An explanation of what someone determines as constructive diction will provide a handy reference to anyone learning how reach out (within their limits) to their specific needs. We all function on different motivations and some clarity can identify the contrasting parts, before a mutual settlement between separate parties can be determined.

I mean, would you go up to someone and go, "No offense, but your oversensitivity, hyper emotionality, unrealistic and irrational behavior makes no sense to me," and expect them to respond favorably? Enough with this "wasn't meant to harm" wishy-washy shit.

People's behaviors do not always make sense -- which explains why many of us are here on TypeC --, and seemingly harsh observations are sometimes meant to open the lines of understanding 'foreign languages', rather than a means of invalidation. Applying an inaccurate context to someone's words could promote distance, mistrust and frustration that will take longer to mend had they avoided it. If someone finds something offensive, (again) it'd be highly constructive to explain their stance and assume nothing on the offender's part until more information is given. They should also refrain from thinking others would find the same material distasteful.

What's wrong with taking something personally...? It sucks when someone thinks an opinion of yours is offending, [...] then maybe you should reconsider expressing your brilliant opinion, next time

Agreed. Unfortunately, there's the whole other journey of learning how to effectively communicate with different groups. This is a learning process of mistakes that guides us into acknowledging what works and what doesn't, building upon our bank of knowledge to make better judgments.

[...] but when you're offended that someone else is offended

So long as I'm not held responsible for their happiness, I'd personally let them be offended because the same respect should be returned. Thinking someone's a complete prick doesn't help the existing troubles (ex: incompatible goals) that I already face. Beyond my business, it's everyone's own choice to decide.
 

Scott N Denver

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let us talk about our feelings,values, beliefs, hopes, dreams, ideals, etc. Join in when we talk about that stuff, ask us questions about it. Be open with us. don't insult our feelings, values, etc. dont be a jerkwad.

was that pretty fair and to the point?
I want a succinctness prize!
 

Lethe

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let us talk about our feelings,values, beliefs, hopes, dreams, ideals, etc. Join in when we talk about that stuff, ask us questions about it. Be open with us. don't insult our feelings, values, etc. dont be a jerkwad.

was that pretty fair and to the point?
I want a succinctness prize!

The 'cliffnotes' of the entire thread. I love it. :D
 
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