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  1. #91
    Senior Member WoodsWoman's Avatar
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    Eh, Halla, he was good about it - and he was, from what I can see, a very typical ENTJ: He loved to talk politics. The saving grace was that we both 'sang from the same sheet of music' so to speak. Even so he'd spout off about things that came up in the news on a regular basis.

    The other place he'd spout was on the road about other drivers - his driving skills were excellent and standards very high. He'd spout and my blood pressure would go up: I'd be angry at them for irritating him (I'd react the same way when he'd mouth off about someone at work, too). He'd insist he was just spouting - it didn't get under his skin the way it did mine... oh, well...

    He never took his irritations out inappropriately - his immense personal integrity kept that from being any sort of problem.

  2. #92
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodsWoman View Post
    Eh, Halla, he was good about it - and he was, from what I can see, a very typical ENTJ: He loved to talk politics. The saving grace was that we both 'sang from the same sheet of music' so to speak. Even so he'd spout off about things that came up in the news on a regular basis.

    The other place he'd spout was on the road about other drivers - his driving skills were excellent and standards very high. He'd spout and my blood pressure would go up: I'd be angry at them for irritating him (I'd react the same way when he'd mouth off about someone at work, too). He'd insist he was just spouting - it didn't get under his skin the way it did mine... oh, well...

    He never took his irritations out inappropriately - his immense personal integrity kept that from being any sort of problem.
    OK, that's good to know, I mis-read your ex's innate need to argue asd being more similar to other (less agreeable E_TJ) folks I know IRL. Bottom line for me is that I argue when needed, do it fairly, and if I am sure of my point of view will persist until victorious. If I am not 100% sure then I don't argue, I will debate, as that is an opportunity for learning, and not a needless conflict. I hope that makes sense to someone other than ESTP me...

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    i think entropie would prefer fishnets. am i right?
    :ROFL1: Aphrodite-Gone-Awry, you, and only you are able to pick out the one sentence I write that a missing "T" totally and completely derails my comment and in the same stroke reveals Mr. Entropie's female hosiery fetishes. I applaud your humor and on-the-fly editing skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Everything's subjective...

    In more seriousness, my 'natural response' is always appropriate - to me. Just like your natural response is appropriate - to you.

    Where 'context appropriate' comes in is what do you do after your natural response kick in...


    Feelings don't have to be invalidated or excused, they exist side by side with all the other intellectual reasoning and decision making we do. And are often part of that process....

    I wouldn't articulate it as 'separating themselves from the situation' but just being able to look at the situation more objectively. Ne actually does help with that, you know...

    Because we're always a part of our own personal situations.
    I applaud the above excerpts from your response. They remind me of much good wisdom in Dr. David burns "Feeling Good Handbook." It is the first text I was encouraged to read by my wife that had communication tips/techniques/bullet point summarized strategy that was (a) comprehensible, (b) useful, and (c) coupled with advice to al.low it to be deployed in real world contexts.

    Although a creature that prides himself on being open minded and fair, it is only as of late that I have recognized with forethought that many conversations that human beings have (especially spouses) are not zero sum games where there must be one winner and one loser. Such conversations are often "feelings based" and it is extrememly difficult for a strong thinker type (ala ESTP me) to wind up in one of these conversations and not arm themselves and take the offensive. It is COMPLETELY alien to us. I've tried to get better at this, but by my own admission there are times when I look my wife in the face and say "I am angry right now and cannot continue this conversation" and she is happy with me for it because I have said as such instead of storming off and not speaking to her for 3 days while I go off in the backyard and build a shed. At the same time her attempts at telling me what she WANTS or NEEDS from me feel like bloodletting and I know she is trying her damnedest so I hang in as long as I can until blood emits from my tympanic membranes. This is serious shit for those of us who do not have a knack for it naturally and are trying to develop such siad skills for the sake of the greater good (aka staying married!). It is so hard for me not to go tactical at times, and just as hard for her to speak her mind in ways that make sense to me. What a fucking nightmare it can be, thank you MBTI gods! Assholes!

  3. #93
    Senior Member sciski's Avatar
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    Firstly, Halla74, may I salute you.



    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    2) I'm certain that I know how you're feeling far more accurately than you do, so don't argue with me.
    Isn't this an example of poor skills (possibly over-arrogance) in Perceiving, not poor skills in Judging?

  4. #94
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    To quote the Toby Keith song title [he was in Denver on Friday btw], "I wanna talk about me", and by "me" I mean "INF's and our care and upkeep"

  5. #95
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Hey folks, those wishing to continue in Sim's experiment may do so here:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-outraged.html

    That means a bunch of posts were moved

    Continue!

    I wanna learn how to raise my INFP into a big and healthy INFP!
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  6. #96
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    quoting myself since it belongs in this thread:

    Ye, original topic. BTW, how is your and OA's bookwork coming along? Inquiring minds [who spend money on MBTI books!!!] want to know.

    BTW, while not nearly as technical as many other MBTI books, I strongly recommend Renee Barron's What Type Am I?

  7. #97
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think that's all I got right there. Unless, what is it that you want to know? Difference between the two types? How to make up after a fight with one of the types? How to surprise them or make them happy? What to do in different scenarios? Where to find one? How to win them over?

  8. #98
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFJAGgernaut-B View Post
    What To Do

    - Say it. State your point, give us the rundown, and let us figure out the rest. Padding your point to soften the blow reads as you thinking we're too delicate to process the raw data. If you need an example, ask us for a brutally honest, off-the-record opinion about your fat ass or your butt-ugly Donald Duck necktie.

    - Say it once. If you keep revisiting a point once it's been made, it shows us you think we have the attention span of a goldfish with ADD swimming in Red Bull laced with ecstasy. You'll get your goldfish from the pet store and your point made before the Jurassic-period caveman figures out how that strange little orange fish appeared in mid-air...and why everything's been frozen in time and 40 shades of neon since he ate it.
    These two guidelines would apply for any hassle-free discussion with me, even though I am not an INFJ. Alas, I coincidentally happen to have an ISFJ mother who instinctively relies on all the aforementioned petpeeves to communicate her points. One can guess how strenuous and emotionally taxing our interactions become.

    =======================================

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    [...] after 15 years I am only now learning to "talk" with my INFJ. Someone please tell me that's normal...
    I'm rowing in the same boat, and I have made about a (literal) 5% progress on understanding the ISFJ dialect. Quitting isn't my style, so I am still here a billion heated arguments later trying to figure out a workable solution for a smooth INTJ-ISFJ translation.

    We also have a (semi)treaty:

    1. When I have limited patience, we won't speak to each other for the whole day. (Results: 10/10)
    + My benefit: Time and clear space to sort out messy thoughts. Can re-organize/execute responsibilities sans the nagging chorus.
    + Her benefit: Could avoid listening to the biting criticisms or any other form of 'disrespect'.
    + Mutual benefit: Saves energy for other activities.
    - Drawbacks (-0): None.

    2. If she wants me to do something a.s.a.p, she would limit the number of instructional repetitions and procedural nit-picks. Then declare an official deadline. (Results: 7/10)
    + Benefits: Same as above.
    - Drawbacks (-3): She has trouble sticking to the deadlines, because she feels guilty about allowing the consequences to teach me a lesson. (However, this is the best way for me to learn and remember anything. I generally let the consequences shape the person, while my mom will nag -- out of love -- the person from a poor decision.) So the ISFJ mother often tries to extend them, and to her dismay, I would often forget about her requests since they loose their importance by having a flexible deadline. They always seem less desirable compared to the more time-sensitive tasks. As an individual who performs better under a firm structure that has room for navigational creativity, I am unresponsive to her strict step-by-step methods and vague descriptions of the expected results. The very source of conflict arrives from our working and directing preferences. I know she won't be changing her ways, so I will need to accommodate myself with an imaginary set of deadlines and consequences. It's challenging to do so because the returns aren't as enjoyable as the real ones.

    (*I'm going to tie this into my experiences with the INFJ tomorrow.)

    =======================================

    Quote Originally Posted by rainoneventide View Post
    Your diction is anything but constructive.
    Perhaps it is not, though his intention to be constructive is largely indisputable. An explanation of what someone determines as constructive diction will provide a handy reference to anyone learning how reach out (within their limits) to their specific needs. We all function on different motivations and some clarity can identify the contrasting parts, before a mutual settlement between separate parties can be determined.

    Quote Originally Posted by rainoneventide View Post
    I mean, would you go up to someone and go, "No offense, but your oversensitivity, hyper emotionality, unrealistic and irrational behavior makes no sense to me," and expect them to respond favorably? Enough with this "wasn't meant to harm" wishy-washy shit.
    People's behaviors do not always make sense -- which explains why many of us are here on TypeC --, and seemingly harsh observations are sometimes meant to open the lines of understanding 'foreign languages', rather than a means of invalidation. Applying an inaccurate context to someone's words could promote distance, mistrust and frustration that will take longer to mend had they avoided it. If someone finds something offensive, (again) it'd be highly constructive to explain their stance and assume nothing on the offender's part until more information is given. They should also refrain from thinking others would find the same material distasteful.

    Quote Originally Posted by rainoneventide View Post
    What's wrong with taking something personally...? It sucks when someone thinks an opinion of yours is offending, [...] then maybe you should reconsider expressing your brilliant opinion, next time
    Agreed. Unfortunately, there's the whole other journey of learning how to effectively communicate with different groups. This is a learning process of mistakes that guides us into acknowledging what works and what doesn't, building upon our bank of knowledge to make better judgments.

    Quote Originally Posted by rainoneventide View Post
    [...] but when you're offended that someone else is offended
    So long as I'm not held responsible for their happiness, I'd personally let them be offended because the same respect should be returned. Thinking someone's a complete prick doesn't help the existing troubles (ex: incompatible goals) that I already face. Beyond my business, it's everyone's own choice to decide.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  9. #99
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    let us talk about our feelings,values, beliefs, hopes, dreams, ideals, etc. Join in when we talk about that stuff, ask us questions about it. Be open with us. don't insult our feelings, values, etc. dont be a jerkwad.

    was that pretty fair and to the point?
    I want a succinctness prize!

  10. #100
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    let us talk about our feelings,values, beliefs, hopes, dreams, ideals, etc. Join in when we talk about that stuff, ask us questions about it. Be open with us. don't insult our feelings, values, etc. dont be a jerkwad.

    was that pretty fair and to the point?
    I want a succinctness prize!
    The 'cliffnotes' of the entire thread. I love it.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
    SLOAN: rCoa|I|
    Functional Preferences: Ni, Te/Fi, Ti, Se, Fe, Si, Ne


    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

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