[MBTI General] NFP Idealism

[sculpting]

Sounds good to me...and I was mostly definitely thinking about the emotionally/social disruptions that can not just the material/financial ones. On the family front I think 'do I want to overburden my siblings with taking care of my parents while I'm off in school?' 'Will I be willing to do the same if they decide they want to go to school?' 'Will I be able to handle the pressure of working and going to school?' 'What if the program I'm interested is on the other side of the country' I mean all these questions can't be ignored or remain unanswered for me and I'm not comfortable winging it with such major issues.

This could be a failing on my part. I may make these decisions somewhat self centrically and assume others can support themselves-that pesky Te standard thing. I need to think on that....For instance I chose to go to grad school in michigan rather than Texas where all of my family was-knowing this would take my son away from grandparents, as I wanted the experience. In retrospect it was a selfish decision made as I did not want another person telling me what I should do ie where to go to school.

It was fine in the end but very self centric in retrospect.

Ne-Monster: how do you explain me then?

Let me think-I dont understand INFPs very well but maybe Si for planning? Udog where are you?????

 

[Poki]

Te is cruel and unforgiving. It holds me and everyone around me to high standards and lets me clearly know where I have failed. It is the voice in the back of my head when I want to quit that says "suck up and get back to it".

Fi is the forgiveness factor above that allows other people leniancy, if you are not horrific I will have some level of Fi automatic caring for you. I get no leniancy personally though.

However when involving hurting others both Fi and Te step up and can be very harsh and critical to others. It suprises me when others are very unaware of how thier actions affect others around them and inflict harm. When I see this I have to spend some time thinking on how they could not see what they do. Once I understand thier weaknesses/blind spots I can forgive them very easily.

Maybe this is why enfps feel we have to understand others. Te has exceptionally high standards but Fi has exceptional forgiveness for others. By understanding the other person as much as possible, it allows us to calibrate our response-our standards-to their actions and respond accordingly and not be overly idealistic. We understand how they differ and accept them fully, embracing those differences and forgiving as slights they may inflict.

Does this sound nuts?

From a third party perspective it seems like the understanding of someone helps ENFPs focus Te in a better direction for that person. Without that understanding you are really shooting in the dark with Te and may try to help in ways that dont work. Not to keep bringing this up and I do realize I keep pushing this, but it was the only example I could think of. Your ex kept bugging you to take salt baths for pain and you dont like them. It is very good Te advice, but its just general advice, not personalized. While the advice may be good, it will not always be followed. The understanding allows you to forgive and to give help in the right direction which the other person will be more likely to follow and will be much more help to them. The lack of understanding is what really drives a tertiary Te to question how effective they are in helping others.

 

[Moiety]

Nice replies, people.

When I've happy-bombed my friends like your coworker has, it's my way of showing them that life can take inexplicable turns for the better sometimes. Maybe you'll get a financial aid package to help you through school. Maybe you can get family members and friends to help out. You don't know what will happen in the future, so why dwell on the obstacles in your mind -- I guess that's my take on things.

Yeah, I do it in a way that makes others see the good possibilities. But I'm always careful to temper it all with my high Ti.

 

[PeaceBaby]

The only one who truely disappoints is myself and I can deal with that.

But it's not easy. I hear what you are saying. I hold myself to a very high standard, so much so it can be exhausting. But then I wouldn't be me without it. A curious oxymoron it is.

Ne-Monster: how do you explain me then?

What do you want to understand my kitty? Tell me.

 

[runvardh]

What do you want to understand my kitty? Tell me.

This:

proteanmix: Is it then weird that I also have a decent grasp of the roadblocks to any of the dreams I have?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Yes, but elaborate - I want to understand what you mean more fully. Do these roadblocks prevent you from acting, or do you see the roadblocks and then feel defeated? Do you chart them out? I see roadblocks too ... I don't think it is weird, it's being realistic. But I often look for clever and strategic ways to solve these problems. My idealism makes me believe there must be a way to fix any given issue, if probed and explored completely enough.

So elaborate for me if you wish.

 

[runvardh]

Some roadblocks I know I can work with or around; others I'd rather not, but those have more to do with different kinds of health or moral concerns.

 

[Strawberrylover]

Happy bombed! I hate being happy bombed. :SaiyanSmilie_anim: Just joking, but not really.
How do people who resist being happy bombed come across to you?

They do come off kind of pessimistic and make me feel like I'm hitting a wall. With close friends, if I can't make them see the light at the end of the tunnel, I can take it personally sometimes and wonder if they're just not listening to me on purpose -- which is an unfair assessment, I know.

I wonder if this is more an extroverted function v. introverted function thing instead of a J/P thing. Don't extroverted functions tend to be more linear and looking toward the future and introverted functions more "webbed" and taking account of the past?

I think that when I'm reflecting and kind of sunk into my Fi, I probably come across to people the way you came across to your coworker. When I'm in that state, I need to talk things out as a way to let go of my anxieties. Meanwhile, my Fe friends would try to happy-bomb me in their own ways, saying things like: Just forget about it, go out and party, you're awesome!! And really, that just makes me feel misunderstood and doesn't help at all. Like, if I could forget about it, don't you think I would've already? Grrr.

In those situations, what I really need them to do is just affirm that my difficulties do exist, and in the simple act of listening to me, help me figure things out piecemeal. --> Sounds like that's what you were looking for from your coworkers as well.

 

[sculpting]

From a third party perspective it seems like the understanding of someone helps ENFPs focus Te in a better direction for that person. Without that understanding you are really shooting in the dark with Te and may try to help in ways that dont work. Not to keep bringing this up and I do realize I keep pushing this, but it was the only example I could think of. Your ex kept bugging you to take salt baths for pain and you dont like them. It is very good Te advice, but its just general advice, not personalized. While the advice may be good, it will not always be followed. The understanding allows you to forgive and to give help in the right direction which the other person will be more likely to follow and will be much more help to them. The lack of understanding is what really drives a tertiary Te to question how effective they are in helping others.

Ah, but he bundles it up with Fe. If he would Te propose a solution I could logically explain my preference, identify an alternative, then explain logically why I chose that alternative.

However instead he uses Fe. He sort of layers emo, unspoken "I care for you and want you to do this, so you should do it if you care for me" vibes. But I dont want to do it....

So then I "feel" he is unhappy with Fi, get bits of Fi-guilt-pain, then I get angry and resentful as I dont see a clear way to resolve the issue, except taking a salt bath which i dont want to do.

An even more hysterical example are road bumps-we have these giant ones in my neighborhood. So he comes one day to pick up the kids and is like "yeah the shocks on my car are getting all messed up....It's the road bumps in your neighborhood. They are huge...." but all said with this sad emo tone. WTF can I do about the road bumps??? Yet I still feel guilty as he seems to be emo-sad and it makes my Fi all sad.

It is weird and I dont understand it at all. But his emo, not his ISTP callousness is what I cant take.

 

[Clonester]

I wouldn't trade my idealism for the world.


Wait, taking over the world is my ideal. Can I possibly trade my idealism for the thing I idealize? Then I wouldn't idealize it anymore. How do I wrap my brain around this one...

 

[Poki]

Ah, but he bundles it up with Fe. If he would Te propose a solution I could logically explain my preference, identify an alternative, then explain logically why I chose that alternative.

However instead he uses Fe. He sort of layers emo, unspoken "I care for you and want you to do this, so you should do it if you care for me" vibes. But I dont want to do it....

So then I "feel" he is unhappy with Fi, get bits of Fi-guilt-pain, then I get angry and resentful as I dont see a clear way to resolve the issue, except taking a salt bath which i dont want to do.

An even more hysterical example are road bumps-we have these giant ones in my neighborhood. So he comes one day to pick up the kids and is like "yeah the shocks on my car are getting all messed up....It's the road bumps in your neighborhood. They are huge...." but all said with this sad emo tone. WTF can I do about the road bumps??? Yet I still feel guilty as he seems to be emo-sad and it makes my Fi all sad.

It is weird and I dont understand it at all. But his emo, not his ISTP callousness is what I cant take.

I am sorry, I didnt mean to take it down this road, that example was what I thought about because I saw you wrote it so my mind was on what you could possibly relate to, sorry things pop in my head and since it was you this popped in my head. I stick by my example as an example of unfocused Te, but my example doesnt match up with how things happened IRL. It sounds like he seriously has some depression or anger issues to work out.

edit: on a side note, not related to MBTI, but something I notice about alot of men, atleast the ones I am around, is that they have a huge desire to be right. My dad gets upset/hurt the times I back my mom up when she says something about the way he does things. Its a pride thing and his is probably shot. Not saying from you, but his life, he seems like from you write he always needs to prove something.

 

[Mondo]

The problem seems to come from the fact that NF's care too much and the other types don't care enough..

 

[Scott N Denver]

I've often felt out of touch with this world because of what you just stated.

Over the years, I've found that my ideals themselves weren't the problem. It was more of a...finetuning them and the methods used to bring them into the world and apply them to reality. The more you understand reality, the world and people around you, and the more you understand yourself and why you adhere to a certain value, the more you can make a synthesis from both, find common ground and a way to have them positively influence each other

NFPs, do you ever feel like you are just too idealistic? That your standards and values are too hard on other people? How do you turn off the idealistic switch in your head, and do you come to terms with the reality that the way the world/life works is rarely comparable to your own ideals of how it should be?

Feel free to give concrete examples to illustrate your points/experiences.

I don't think my ideals are really too hard on other people, as I generally keep other people out of them.

At times it definitely can be a source of frustration though. Don't know how to turn it off.

I strongly relate to all of the above

 

[ergophobe]

NFPs, do you ever feel like you are just too idealistic? That your standards and values are too hard on other people? How do you turn off the idealistic switch in your head, and do you come to terms with the reality that the way the world/life works is rarely comparable to your own ideals of how it should be?

Feel free to give concrete examples to illustrate your points/experiences.

Along with Lady X and others, I would agree that I am hardest on myself. Everyone else gets quite a bit more leeway. With everyone else, I find a natural generosity just bubbles through. It arises from a genuine love for other human beings, a recognition of their humanity (flaws and all) and a strong belief in basic human virtue. This is the foundation of who I am so I don't think I can change it without losing an important piece of my self.

Of course this leads to all sorts of problems in everyday life. I wonder if I come across as naive/childlike in these views. I've had enough life experience to be faced with dishonesty in all sorts of ways and in all kinds of interactions (charity, romance, friendships, work). Yet, I find it difficult to globalize these experiences to the world. I'll always put it off to individuals.

I am more gullible than most people I know and I am okay with it. I would find it more difficult to give up my idealism than conform to a more skeptical view of the world.

To counter the practical problems of living like this, I am working on honing my 'street smart' skills. Those are getting better all the time. Better awareness of situations, opening up more slowly and still giving people the benefit of doubt is closer to where I want to be.

In relationships (of all kinds), I do fall prey to Kiersey's description pretty closely of ENFPS -- heaping coals on ourselves for not being our complete authentic selves. The idealism in this realm is usually in the form of setting the goal of being as honest as possible and also kind in most human dealings. I'm human, I fall short regularly but the disappointment I feel with myself when I am faced with this, is really devastating.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Wait, taking over the world is my ideal. Can I possibly trade my idealism for the thing I idealize? Then I wouldn't idealize it anymore. How do I wrap my brain around this one...

"What do you want to do tonight Brain?"

"Same thing we do every night Pinky - try to take over the world!"

(Couldn't resist! )

 

[Lady_X]

yep, totally agree with that. people think i'm naive too but i just trust myself to know when to remove trust...if that makes sense...like ms bs detector ya know? and...i can't function the other way. it's way too draining.

 

[ergophobe]

yep, totally agree with that. people think i'm naive too but i just trust myself to know when to remove trust...if that makes sense...like ms bs detector ya know? and...i can't function the other way. it's way too draining.

Yes, I have that top-of-the-line BS detector too. Yet, it seems, my manual override button is permanently depressed. Must get that fixed.

 

[Lady_X]

i don't know if i just haven't had enough coffee...but i don't know what the hell we're talking about anymore.

oh right..yeah that happens haha

 

[Coeur]

NFPs, do you ever feel like you are just too idealistic? That your standards and values are too hard on other people? How do you turn off the idealistic switch in your head, and do you come to terms with the reality that the way the world/life works is rarely comparable to your own ideals of how it should be?

Feel free to give concrete examples to illustrate your points/experiences.

Mainly, my values tend to make me too hard on myself.
Towards other people, I'm extremely leniant. Even if they mess up, I flip it back to some negative reflection on myself. I see what I could have done differently, but fault them not.
If I do see areas in others that need to be changed, it's more from the standpoint of helping the person become even better. I still don't register those points as true flaws, but merely areas where it is my responsibility as a friend to help them grow.
If someone wrongs me, I justify their behavior and drop the subject. Now, I see that all of these traits are NOT out of a forgiving nature, but from a desire to avoid conflict.

As you can see, I'm a big codependent disaster waiting to happen. My last relationship knocked some sense into me. Pair a deeply troubled, accusatory person with a person with a guilt-complex, and it really does not turn out well. After months of berating myself, and finally realizing that he was the problem, I've learned something. I'm human. People are human. We're ALL screwed up to some degree. I am not an ideal and never will be. I've always looked at myself from two extreme sides: completely good, or completely terrible. However, realistically I am a combination of yin and yang. Other people aren't perfect either, and they AREN'T going to change. Ever. If they're toxic today, they'll be toxic tomorrow, and it is not my job to 'fix' anyone.

I think it's easiest to find the ideal in the reality, rahter than to try to fit reality into the ideal.

 

[OrangeAppled]

My ideals are not the problem, the world is the problem!

Seriously though, I think that I refine my ideals, as someone else mentioned. Instead of giving up on them and caving to "reality" (which just sort of leads to depression), I shape my ideals into something that makes more sense.

I also think my Ne-aux allows me to see soooo many possibilities, and many of them "ideal", so that my ideals can be fluid and flexible. This keeps me from having impossibly high standards and being endlessly disappointed.

There's also the NFP ability to have good foresight: "This situation may not be ideal, but it could lead to something better, that's closer to the ideal." If we ever reached the ideal, we might have no motivation anyway .

I think another saving grace of the NFP idealism is our compassion. We might be easier on others than ourselves if they fall short of our ideal and may not even apply all of our ideals to them. On the other hand, our high standards sort of regulate the environment around us, and it can be good to expect a lot of people if it means encouraging them (and the world) to improve. My ideals are based on my values, which are principles that I rarely compromise, but the ideal can change forms without compromising the basic principle. So in that sense, my ideals are never given up, just adjusted to more realistically stay in line with my principles.